Yes Gurucharanji, this thread is not just about this one case... this is about the process of name changes, species id and publications ... precautions, attention to detail that are necessary ... a good learning case...
AND GARGJI... is there a provision for a thread or index of important threads .... usha di = On Sep 13, 6:19 pm, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes Ushadi > It is bad practice to do self praise, but I was going to write to Garg ji to > put this thread prominently on our group, for reasons more than one and it > also proves the statement I once made about our group "eForum of Indian > Taxonomic Research". Many things I learnt myself while trying to go to the > bottom of the fact that no one cites the name Kosteletzkya vitifolia, > whereas Kosteletzkya is a well recognised genus. Thanks ultimately I was > able to dig out the cause. > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ushadi Micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > Gurucharanji: if HS agrees with you this lesson would stop... > > > I sincerely wish HS a great thanks , because his questions that now we all > > are so much more enriched about several points, not the least of which is of > > Hibiscus vs Kostlezyka .. > > > not that I wish for any anger/outbursts , but questions, honest > > scientific questions are good... > > and your answers are so thorough that they will teach non botanists > > equally... > > > thanks again... I will bookmark this thread for all the valuable data it > > contains... > > > Usha di > > ======= > > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote: > > >> Dear H S > > >> I think that was the fault. They ignored single seed diagnosis, although > >> Kosteletzkya has strongly angular capsules: > > >> Please read this on page 5 of this important thesis: > > >>http://mars.gmu.edu:8080/bitstream/1920/6003/1/Alexander_2010_Thesis.pdf > > >> "Plants in the genus Kosteletzkya resemble members of the genus Hibiscus > >> in floral > >> morphology but differ mainly in that each carpel contains a single seed as > >> opposed to > >> multiple seeds (Bayer and Kubitzki, 2003)." > > >> Please read this also: > > >>http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Hibiscus/sections.php > > >> "Genus *Kosteletzkya* (section *Pentaspermum*) (image > >> gallery<http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Kosteletzkya/gallery.html>) > >> approaches *Fioria* in possessing winged or less commonly angled fruits, > >> and approaches Malvavisceae in the cells of the fruit being single-seeded. > >> It consists of 17 species > >> [5<http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Hibiscus/sections.php#Ref5>], > >> mostly from tropical America, and to a lesser extent, Africa, but also with > >> species in the eastern USA, southern Europe, south west Asia, and Malesia. > >> However some species of *Kosteletzkya* fall into the 8th group" > > >> P S: since all species of Fioria are now merged back to Hibiscus, shows > >> that angled or winged fruit is not singly a distinguishing character of > >> Kosteletzkya, whereas the single seeded character is! > > >>http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html > > >> TRIBE IV. HIBISCEÆ > >> [21<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN21> > >> ], *Endl.* (excl. Malvaviscus). – Carpels as many as the stigmas, 3–10 > >> (usually 5), combined into a loculicidal few–many-seeded (or rarely > >> indehiscent) capsule; the dissepiments borne on the middle of the valves. > >> Column antheriferous for a great part of its length, naked and 5-toothed at > >> the apex. > > >> 1. Cells of the ovary uniovulate. Involucel polyphyllous. > >> - KOSTELETZKYA. (Plate 132.) Capsule depressed, 5-celled, 5-seeded. > >> - DECASCHISTIA, *Wight & Arn.* India > >> [22<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN22> > >> ]. > >> 2. Cells of the ovary 2–many ovulate. Involucel 3–polyphyllous. > >> - THESPESIA, *Correa.* Tropical Asia and Oceanica. > >> - SERRÆA, *Cav.* (Senra, *DC.* > >> [23<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN23>]) > >> Arabia and Egypt. > >> - FUGOSIA > >> [24<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN24> > >> ], *Juss.* Tropical America and Africa.d > >> - ABELMOSCHUS, *Medik.* Tropical Asia and America > >> [25<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN25> > >> ]. > >> - HIBISCUS. (Plate 133.) Involucel polyphyllous. Calyx persistent, > >> not spathaceous. Capsule 5-celled, 5-valved; the cells > >> few–many-seeded. > >> - GOSSYPIUM, *Linn.* Tropical Asia and Africa > >> [26<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN26> > >> ]. > >> 3. Cells of the ovary 4–6 ovulate. Involucel minute, or none > >> [27<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN27> > >> ]. > >> - LAGUNARIA, *Don.* Norfolk Island > >> [28<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN28> > >> ]. > >> - LAGUNEA > >> [29<http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html#FN29> > >> ], *Cav.* Tropical Asia and Africa. > > >> I think above information should convince you. > > >> -- > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >> Retired Associate Professor > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> Thank you Sirji for explaination.. > > >>> but what about Dr. Almeida and N. Patil, explaination in paper about > >>> Kosteletzkya is restricted to angular capsule and not to single seed.. > > >>> please if you can clear my doubt. > > >>> regards. > > >>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Dinesh Valke > >>> <dinesh.va...@gmail.com>wrote: > > >>>> ... salutes Gurcharan ji for taking efforts to dig into papers and at > >>>> the reputed sites ... many thanks for the clear analysis. > >>>> Regards. > >>>> Dinesh > > >>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Giby Kuriakose < > >>>> giby.kuriak...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> Very interesting and authentic explanation to the discussion. Thank you > >>>>> sir for the same. > >>>>> This would be the simplest of such kind of explanations that I ever > >>>>> come across. > >>>>> I think this would clears the doubt. I never knew that there were such > >>>>> a complicated matter behind this species. > >>>>> This is a wonderful learning as well. > > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Giby > > >>>>> On 12 September 2011 16:31, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote: > > >>>>>> Let us understand some basics > >>>>>> Although the name of Hibiscus vitifolius is clearly mentioned in the > >>>>>> paper, it does not fulfill the basic requirement (for publications > >>>>>> after > >>>>>> 1955 as informed by Tanay). The basionym on which the combination is > >>>>>> based > >>>>>> should be written immediately after the combination suggested, which > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> authors have not done. Pl. see the IPNI record: > > >>>>>>http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=991056-1 > > >>>>>> Please note another interesting thing (although it should not > >>>>>> disqualify the combination). While making the combination authors > >>>>>> should > >>>>>> have changed vitifolius to vitifolia, which unfortunately they have not > >>>>>> done. > > >>>>>> Even if we think that combination is valid, let us understand that > >>>>>> this combination was made in 1996, and let us see how recent > >>>>>> publications > >>>>>> treat this taxon: > > >>>>>>http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id... > >>>>>> status 2009 > > >>>>>>http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI > >>>>>> based on GRIN > >>>>>> status > >>>>>> 9/5/2011 > > >>>>>>http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 > >>>>>> Kew Bull., > >>>>>> 2003 > > >>>>>>http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/names > >>>>>> EOL Annual > >>>>>> Checklist > >>>>>> 2010 > > >>>>>>http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 > >>>>>> 4/7/2011 > > >>>>>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosofsrilanka/4348195473/ > >>>>>> Jan 2010 > > >>>>>>http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do? > >>>>>> D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&N4=G1036|SIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC<http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=SEARCH_C...> > >>>>>> 2011 > > >>>>>> It would be interesting to know any recent publication which > >>>>>> recognises Kosteletzkya vitifolia as accepted name. > > >>>>>> Interesting Hibiscus vitifolius is an African plant described in most > >>>>>> African and South American Floras. It is also true that genus > >>>>>> Kosteletzkya > >>>>>> is recognised as disctinct. The million dollar question is if > >>>>>> Kosteletzkya > >>>>>> vitifolia combination published in BNHS is not valid and species really > >>>>>> belongs to this genus Kostelzkya, why no author has published a valid > >>>>>> combination (or name) for this so common a plant, which many had > >>>>>> published > >>>>>> as Fioria vitifolia (now merged back into Hibiscus). > > >>>>>> My simple conclusion is that perhaps Almeida and Patil were wrong in > >>>>>> assigning Hibiscus vitifolia L. to genus Kostelzkya. The genus is > >>>>>> separated > >>>>>> from Hibiscus in having single ovule (and seed) in each locule, whereas > >>>>>> Hibiscus vitifolius has 2-4 per locule as a rule. I think here lies the > >>>>>> answer. This leaves the validity of combination made by Almeida and > >>>>>> Patil > >>>>>> without much meaning. > > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:59 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > ... > > read more »
