Dear JLC, To your nice question ...
/// I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing?/// … My quick reply: My reading from https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html> is that the leaves used for the measurement of making bronze idols are தென்னங்கீற்று ஓலைகள் (from coconut trees) which are different from பனை ஓலைகள் (from palmyra trees) that I suppose were/are used for writing. I’ll share more information if/when I get them. Best wishes, VSR > On May 8, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Herman, > Dear VSR, > dear Srilata, > dear all, > > being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice. > > I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by seeing > this picture and its caption > (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but it is > reachable via the links) > > Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax model > of a god > > This is from a document available on Research gate > > Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India > January 2007 > Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, A., > Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr. > Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India > > The Research gate link was provided in this thread > > https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ > > on the தமிழ் மன்றம் mailing list by தேமொழி > > I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf > > I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement > tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing? > > Herman, are you writing review of this 2007 book? > > Best wishes to all > > -- Jean-Luc (in Müssen) > > > https://twitter.com/JLC1956 > > > > On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: >> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. >> It’s interesting … மொழம் (mozham or moḻam, however we transcribe it) is the >> length of measurement from one’s elbow up to the tip of the middle finger. >> So, the length of this முழம்/மொழம் would vary depending upon the person >> who’s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/moḻam is about >> 16-inches. Others’ may vary. >> So, I’m curious about the measurements used in śilpa śāstra texts. I’ll keep >> exploring. >> Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. >> Regards, >> rajam >>> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, >>> Exactly. The stick (கோல்) is the length of one மொழம் which, as you and I >>> know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to measure >>> the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. >>> With regards, >>> Srilata Raman >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:* >>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>> >>>> I’d analyze “oṭiōlai” as oṭi + ōlai (ஒடி + ஓலை; a வினைத்தொகை vinaittokai); >>>> roughly translated … ‘*snapped* palm leaf’ >>>> >>>> “oṭi" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of “ >>>> oṭi* ” in TL. >>>> >>>> I’ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* of “oṭi” >>>> as in “odiolai." >>>> >>>> The rendition ‘mollakkol’ reflects the aberration from written to spoken >>>> versions of the language: முழக்கோல் > மொழக்கோல் > மொளக்கோல் >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> rajam >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. >>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>>>> Thank you very much for the information. muḻakkōl is mentioned in the TL. >>>>> (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, oṭi ōlai is not, so >>>>> the meaning of oṭi is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word >>>>> is to be written: oṭi with short o, not ōṭi. >>>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>>> >>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Van:*rajam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H. >>>>> *CC:*indology >>>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>>> >>>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- >>>>> “odi” — in “odiolai” could mean. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>>>> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html> >>>>> >>>>> சுவாமிமலையில் அமைக்கப்படும் மெழுகு வடிவங்களுக்கு ஒரு சிறப்பு உண்டு. >>>>> சிலையின் அளவுகள் தென்னங்கீற்று ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பகுதியாகப் பிரித்து >>>>> கணக்கிடப்படுகின்றன.*இந்த ஓலை அளவு பிரமாணத்தை சுவாமிமலை**முழக் கோல்*என்று >>>>> அழைப்போம். >>>>> தற்போது சுவாமிமலையில் வழக்கத்தில் உள்ள ஓலை அளவு நவ*தாள*அளவு -*ஒன்பது ஒடி >>>>> அளவு, பஞ்ச தாள அளவு ஐந்து ஒடி அளவு*ஆகிய இரண்டு அளவுகள் மட்டும் >>>>> பயன்பாட்டில் உள்ளன. ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் >>>>> சிலைகள்: சிவன், விஷ்ணு, பெண் தெய்வங்கள், மற்ற தெய்வ வடிவங்கள். >>>>> ஐந்து பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: விநாயகர், பூத கணங்கள், >>>>> குழந்தை வடிவச் சிலைகள். >>>>> மேற்படி அளவு முறைகளில் தியான சுலோகங்களின்படி சிற்பிகள் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையையும் >>>>> மெழுகினால் வடிக்கின்றனர். தியான சுலோகங்களில் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையின் அமைப்பும் >>>>> விளக்கமாக விவரிக்கப்படுகின்றது. >>>>> >>>>> sorry, at the moment I don’t have sufficient time to translate the above >>>>> reference-passage for a general audience. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> rajam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY >>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear List Members, >>>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. >>>>>> The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a >>>>>> flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ōlai, "palmleaf". >>>>>> But what is the first part? >>>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of >>>>>> which is most probably kōl, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first >>>>>> part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and >>>>>> molla. >>>>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>>>> >>>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>>> The Netherlands >>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> <https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> <https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > <Odi-olai.png>
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