Dear VSR,
thanks a lot for your clarification,
/*தென்னங்கீற்று* ஓலைகள் (from coconut trees)/
which I find upon waking up this morning on this side of the Atlantic
ocean, although it would nevertheless take one hour to fly to the Ocean :-)
Yesterday, before going to bed, I had also sent a message to our common
friend Sharmila Ganesan (whom I know thanks to you :-)
She had also replied to me she thought it was thennai olai and that she
would make further verifications.
This morning I had another message from her which she sent after
consulting with Prof Selvakumar of Tamil University, Thanjai
and he also says it appears to be thennai olai.
His inputs:
Odi = மடி fold
He refers to this blog:
https://ilupeju.blogspot.com/2009/11/divine-labour-ward.html
He also sent a Ph.D. on the topic,
which I shall forward privately to you, to Herman and to Srilata because
I am not sure how well the PDF would go on the mailing list server
The thesis title page says
**********************+
UC San Diego
UC San Diego Electronic Theses and Dissertations
Title
Casting Selves: Tradition, Practice, and Ethics in an Artisan Community
in India
Permalink
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3vc1k17m
Author
Balaswaminathan, Sowparnika
Publication Date
2018
Peer reviewed|Thesis/dissertation
****************
I am glad we are having this exchange
I really love to learn how things are made :-)
அன்புடன்
-- Jean-Luc (in Müssen)
https://twitter.com/JLC1956
On 09/05/2021 19:06, rajam wrote:
Dear JLC,
To your nice question ...
/// I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as
measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for
writing?/// …
My quick reply:
My reading from https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html
<https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>
<https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html
<https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>> is that the
leaves used for the measurement of making bronze idols are *தென்னங்கீற்று*
ஓலைகள் (from coconut trees) which are different from *பனை* ஓலைகள் (from
palmyra trees) that I suppose were/are used for writing.
I’ll share more information if/when I get them.
Best wishes,
VSR
On May 8, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Herman,
Dear VSR,
dear Srilata,
dear all,
being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice.
I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by
seeing this picture and its caption
(I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but
it is reachable via the links)
Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax
model of a god
This is from a document available on Research gate
Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India
January 2007
Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy,
A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr.
Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India>
The Research gate link was provided in this thread
https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ
on the தமிழ் மன்றம் mailing list by தேமொழி
I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf
I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as
measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing?
Herman, are you writing review of this 2007 book?
Best wishes to all
-- Jean-Luc (in Müssen)
https://twitter.com/JLC1956
On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote:
Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman.
It’s interesting … மொழம் (mozham or moḻam, however we transcribe it)
is the length of measurement from one’s elbow up to the tip of the
middle finger. So, the length of this முழம்/மொழம் would vary depending
upon the person who’s doing the measurement. For example, my
muzham/mozham/moḻam is about 16-inches. Others’ may vary.
So, I’m curious about the measurements used in śilpa śāstra texts.
I’ll keep exploring.
Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman.
Regards,
rajam
On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken,
Exactly. The stick (கோல்) is the length of one மொழம் which, as you and
I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to
measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today.
With regards,
Srilata Raman
Sent from my iPad
On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
*EXTERNAL EMAIL:*
Dear Professor Tieken,
I’d analyze “oṭiōlai” as oṭi + ōlai (ஒடி + ஓலை; a வினைத்தொகை
vinaittokai); roughly translated … ‘*snapped* palm leaf’
“oṭi" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning
of “ oṭi* ” in TL.
I’ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement*
of “oṭi” as in “odiolai."
The rendition ‘mollakkol’ reflects the aberration from written to
spoken versions of the language: முழக்கோல் > மொழக்கோல் > மொளக்கோல்
Regards,
rajam
On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H.
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Dr. Rajam,
Thank you very much for the information. muḻakkōl is mentioned in
the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, oṭi
ōlai is not, so the meaning of oṭi is still not clear to me. But I
know now how the word is to be written: oṭi with short o, not ōṭi.
With kind regards, Herman
Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Van:*rajam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40
*Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H.
*CC:*indology
*Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol
Dear Professor Tieken,
Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first
part -- “odi” — in “odiolai” could mean.
https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html
<https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>
சுவாமிமலையில் அமைக்கப்படும் மெழுகு வடிவங்களுக்கு ஒரு சிறப்பு உண்டு.
சிலையின் அளவுகள் தென்னங்கீற்று ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பகுதியாகப் பிரித்து
கணக்கிடப்படுகின்றன.*இந்த ஓலை அளவு பிரமாணத்தை சுவாமிமலை**முழக் கோல்*என்று
அழைப்போம்.
தற்போது சுவாமிமலையில் வழக்கத்தில் உள்ள ஓலை அளவு நவ*தாள*அளவு -*ஒன்பது ஒடி
அளவு, பஞ்ச தாள அளவு ஐந்து ஒடி அளவு*ஆகிய இரண்டு அளவுகள் மட்டும் பயன்பாட்டில்
உள்ளன. ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: சிவன், விஷ்ணு,
பெண் தெய்வங்கள், மற்ற தெய்வ வடிவங்கள்.
ஐந்து பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: விநாயகர், பூத கணங்கள், குழந்தை
வடிவச் சிலைகள்.
மேற்படி அளவு முறைகளில் தியான சுலோகங்களின்படி சிற்பிகள் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையையும்
மெழுகினால் வடிக்கின்றனர். தியான சுலோகங்களில் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையின் அமைப்பும்
விளக்கமாக விவரிக்கப்படுகின்றது.
sorry, at the moment I don’t have sufficient time to translate the
above reference-passage for a general audience.
Regards,
rajam
On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear List Members,
I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in
Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil,
mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is
ōlai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part?
In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part
of which is most probably kōl, "yardstick". But here too: what is
the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to
make of odi and molla.
Kind regards, Herman
Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
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<Odi-olai.png>
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