Dear Matthew, In the Jain tradition, HaribhadrasUri uses Astika in the same way in his SaDdarzanasamuccaya. Yes, we’re several tangents away from my original question; but I have found this conversation thread highly engaging and useful.
All the best! Jeff > On Jun 27, 2024, at 6:56 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > <[email protected]> wrote: > > This has all departed quite far from the original topic of the thread. > > In any case, the Astika-nAstika distinction was fluid and not always used to > mean the same things. So the fixed idea that it means orthodox/heterodox is > not always warranted. > The Buddhist KamalaziIla, for example, uses Astika to refer to all who affirm > karma-saMsAra, > including the Buddhist and Jains. > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Professor emeritus > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Associate > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein > > https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 > > https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 > > Sent with Proton Mail <https://proton.me/> secure email. > > On Thursday, June 27th, 2024 at 11:46 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY > <[email protected]> wrote: >> <image.png> >> <image.png> >> <image.png> >> >> On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 1:36 PM Nagaraj Paturi <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Thanks, Prof. Bronkhorst for sharing this interesting article. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 9:46 AM Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> There is a discussion of the use of āstika and nāstika in a number of >>>> texts (including the remarkable use of nāstika in the >>>> Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha) in the following article: >>>> The structure of the Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha." Journal of Indian Philosophy >>>> 49(4), 2021, 523-534. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10781-021-09474-1. (From p. >>>> 530 on) >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>>> >>>>> On 26 Jun 2024, at 22:48, Howard Resnick via INDOLOGY >>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Lubomir! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Howard >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 25, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Lubomír Ondračka <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> For an overview of the history of the terms āstika and nāstika, see the >>>>>> chapter: >>>>>> >>>>>> “Affirmers (āstikas) and Deniers (nāstikas) in Indian History”, in >>>>>> Andrew J. Nicholson, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in >>>>>> Indian Intellectual History, New York: Columbia University Press, 2010, >>>>>> pp. 166–184. >>>>>> >>>>>> L. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 25/06/2024 13:54, Howard Resnick via INDOLOGY wrote: >>>>>>> Dear Nagaraj, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You indicate that āstika and nāstika are Indian neologisms, but these >>>>>>> words are common in earlier Sanskrit literature. I give a few examples >>>>>>> below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But , as almost all in this group know, these two words aastka and >>>>>>>> naastika were not in reference to the existence or no existence of God >>>>>>>> in the traditional Vaidika discourse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are a number instances of āstikyam in the Mahābhārata, and the >>>>>>> context seems to indicate the word is being used in the sense of >>>>>>> believing in the existence of God. Here is just a partial list of >>>>>>> occurences of āstikya and nāstikya in the Mahābhārata: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MBh 1.1.181, 2.5.96, 6.40.42, 12.12.25, 12.59.66, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And in the Gītā 18.42 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bhāgavata-purāṇa: 1.16.28, 7.11.23, 11.17.18, 11.19.33 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In all these cases, the word seems to be used in the MW sense of >>>>>>> "belief in God, piety, faithfulness.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>>> Howard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2024, at 2:16 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Prof. Jeffrey Long, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'existence' , interestingly enough, is part of the contemporary >>>>>>>> neologisms in the discourse related to religion in the contemporary >>>>>>>> Indian languages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Words aastka and naastika are the neologisms formed and in use as the >>>>>>>> Indian language replacements for 'theist' and 'atheist' of English. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But , as almost all in this group know, these two words aastka and >>>>>>>> naastika were not in reference to the existence or no existence of God >>>>>>>> in the traditional Vaidika discourse. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> asti and naasti, in the traditional Vaidika discourse , refer to the >>>>>>>> existence and no existence of praamaanya for Sruti or existence or no >>>>>>>> existence of paralokas , svarga, naraka or mokshalokas (such as >>>>>>>> vaikuntha, goloka, kailaasa, manidveepa etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The root sat for exist as found in the word satya is part of the >>>>>>>> debates within Vedanta about the satyatva or mithyaatva of the >>>>>>>> category called Jagat , but not about a category comparable to God. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Category comparable to God, or a category often conflated with or >>>>>>>> confused for God in the Vaidika darshanas including Vedanta, is " >>>>>>>> eeshvara ". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Classificational categories seshvara and nireeshvara used in reference >>>>>>>> to different Vaidika darshanas are not about the existence or no >>>>>>>> existence of " eeshvara ". It is about whether the category of " >>>>>>>> eeshvara ". is necessary to account for things , (entities, processes >>>>>>>> and relationships etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Within Vedanta, brahman and eeshvara , categories comparable to God, >>>>>>>> are not discussed for existence or no existence of the >>>>>>>> category/entity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another existence or no existence discussion within Bharatiya >>>>>>>> Darshanas seems to be around aatman and that is between Vedanta and an >>>>>>>> avaidika darshana, say Baudha darshana . If anattaa is no existence of >>>>>>>> aatman, then this can be seen to be around the question of existence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In Vedanta, because of the equivalence of Brahman and aatman at a >>>>>>>> certain level, this, if it is actually around the existence or no >>>>>>>> existence of aatman, can be seen to be, at least remotely, connected >>>>>>>> to the existence or no existence of a category comparable to God. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 9:47 PM Jeffery Long via INDOLOGY >>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Forgive me if this question has already been raised at some point on >>>>>>>>> this list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are any of you aware of arguments developed in Indian philosophical >>>>>>>>> systems akin to the ontological arguments for the existence of God >>>>>>>>> raised by St. Anselm? The closest thing I can think of is Śaṅkara’s >>>>>>>>> argument that existence is self-evident. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With much gratitude in advance, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr. Jeffery D. Long >>>>>>>>> Carl W. Zeigler Professor of Religion, Philosophy, & Asian Studies >>>>>>>>> School of Arts & Humanities >>>>>>>>> Elizabethtown College >>>>>>>>> Elizabethtown, PA >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, >>>>>>>>> Philosophical, and Theological >>>>>>>>> Lexington Books >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> “One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome >>>>>>>>> all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the >>>>>>>>> trials of life.” (Holy Mother Sarada Devi) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> “We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.” (Carl Sagan) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>>> Dean, IndicA >>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>>>>>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra >>>>>>>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. >>>>>>>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru >>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, >>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> Dean, IndicA >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra >>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. >>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> Dean, IndicA >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra >> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. >> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list [email protected] https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
