Merci à tous pour vos messages, Cependant, méfiez-vous de la traduction automatique de Google, cela donne pour le message en allemand de Hans Henrich, qui me dit avoir eu des expériences similaires (aux miennes) avec ses publications : 'j'ai des connaissances approfondies avec mes pratiques allemandes'. Cela n'a rien à voir !
A bientôt, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 août 2025 à 20:30, Hock, Hans Henrich <[email protected]> a écrit : > Lieber Jean Michel, > > ich habe ähnliche Erfahrungen mit meinen deutschsprachigen > Veröffentlichungen gemacht > > Freundlichen Gruß > > Hans Henrich > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 13:15, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Chère Lyne, cher Matthew, > > Je m'adresse à vous en français, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque > vous réagissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. > Peut-être 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, > je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien sûr, cum grano salis (tout le > monde comprendra). > La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par > les expériences - assez nombreuses *malheureusement* - d'incompréhension > du français par nos collègues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de > maîtriser l'anglais ou, à tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le > 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - > même ironiquement - à excuser l'utilisation du français par un tel > adjectif. Tant pis, continuons à écrire en français et advienne que pourra, > l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos > livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cités dans > leurs livres par de prétendus spécialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela > m'est arrivé. Et, horreur, le 'spécialiste' en question avait communiqué > avec moi, quelques années plus tôt, pour me demander conseil... en anglais > bien entendu. > > Jean Michel Delire, > > P.S. Je m'attends à ce que 'la liste' me réprimande pour n'avoir pas > rédigé ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons > l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) > > > > Le sam. 9 août 2025 à 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < > [email protected]> a écrit : > >> Dear Matthew, >> >> I smile at your sense of humour. >> >> Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb >> "unhappily", unless we take it >> as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! >> >> Sāptapadīnam, >> >> Lyne >> >> >> >> Lyne Bansat-Boudon >> >> Directeur d'études pour les Religions de l'Inde >> >> Ecole pratique des hautes études, section des sciences religieuses >> >> Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France >> ------------------------------ >> *De :* INDOLOGY <[email protected]> de la part de >> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> >> *Envoyé :* samedi 9 août 2025 18:01 >> *À :* [email protected] <[email protected]> >> *Cc :* Indology List <[email protected]> >> *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists >> >> Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the >> expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about >> its being in French. >> Matthew >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < >> [email protected] >> <On+Sat,+Aug+9,+2025+at+14:09,+Jean+Michel+DELIRE+via+INDOLOGY+%3C%3Ca+href=>> >> wrote: >> >> May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite à l'usage >> des étudiants hellénistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which >> is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at >> the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the >> early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why >> she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. >> >> Best, >> >> Jean Michel Delire >> >> Le sam. 9 août 2025 à 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < >> [email protected]> a écrit : >> >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPViEKYAD$> >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPYKRJlFm$> >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPfRRFjfO$> >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPakxdyWA$> >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPbfsbknl$> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 à 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a écrit : >> > >> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >> [email protected]> ha scritto: >> >> >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you >> know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek >> and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and >> would be delighted to help. >> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create >> “links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the >> classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been >> almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the >> teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of >> the Campus Mondiale dell’Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, >> very welcome. >> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly >> unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among >> other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted >> at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they >> do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of >> annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the >> regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the >> accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in >> separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to >> the participants in intensive courses or in the many international >> conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi >> nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. >> Finally, you said: “when they go to India…”. They will not go to India: >> Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the >> Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very >> imposing name: Anandavardhan… >> > >> > Cari saluti, >> > Raffaele >> > >> >> All my best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >> [email protected] <mailto: [email protected]>> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium >> Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPTNOyl8D$> >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.vivariumnovum.net*en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np__;Ly8v!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPZgLn3Ml$>>), >> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful >> Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPWqnmgJB$> >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.youtube.com*watch*v*3DJc-HaEXsVoA*26t*3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj__;Ly8vPyUlJQ!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPXzdwwYe$>>). >> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian >> Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >>> >> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell’Umanesimo, housed in the >> Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin >> (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and >> Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, >> with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) >> and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian >> Universities). >> >>> >> >>> Warmest wishes, >> >>> Raffaele >> >>> >> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < >> [email protected] <mailto: [email protected]>> ha >> scritto: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear all, >> >>>> >> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for >> the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that >> may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient >> Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >> >>>> >> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.google.com*url*q*3Dhttps:**Ayoutu.be*XdJrcKwslck*si*253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ*26source*3Dgmail-imap*26ust*3D1755272552000000*26usg*3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA__;Ly8vPyUvLy8_JSUlJSUlJQ!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPYmr3oTb$>>; >> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent >> basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount >> of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between >> the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek >> has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >> >>>> >> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots >> of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 >> either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am >> making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of >> courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPYZqL31t$> >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.google.com*url*q*3Dhttps:**Awww.yogicstudies.com*greek-s-101*26source*3Dgmail-imap*26ust*3D1755272552000000*26usg*3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf__;Ly8vPyUvLy8lJSUlJSU!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPTHIf12Q$> >> >. >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >> >>>> >> >>>> All my best, >> >>>> Antonia >> >>>> >> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; >> the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting >> Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we >> find in ancient India. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] <mailto: [email protected]> >> >>>> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Alist.indology.info*mailman*listinfo*indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI__;Ly8vLy8!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPT1OhaEv$> >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.google.com*url*q*3Dhttps:**Alist.indology.info*mailman*listinfo*indology*26source*3Dgmail-imap*26ust*3D1755272552000000*26usg*3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5__;Ly8vPyUvLy8vLyUlJSUlJQ!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPVXvUUKv$> >> > >> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPVmTdXXj$> >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=http:**Awwwuniroma1.academia.edu*raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB__;Ly8v!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPWRw5TlJ$> >> > >> >>> >> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Università 80209930587 >> >>> Cinque per mille < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/url?q=https:**Awww.uniroma1.it*it*node*23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI__;Ly8vLy8!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPZprsNsC$> >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$> >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) >> Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.normalesup.org/*kichenassamy__;fg!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPfjc1O0m$> >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > [email protected] > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$ > >
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