---------------------------------------------------------- Visit Indonesia Daily News Online HomePage: http://www.indo-news.com/ Please Visit Our Sponsor http://www.indo-news.com/cgi-bin/ads1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Transcript Australian Broadcasting Corp., the 7:30 P.M. Report 23/08/1999 East Timor security Indonesia's responsibility: Downer "There have been many, many terrible incidents" KERRY O'BRIEN: Just one week from today, East Timor will finally have its historic vote on whether to remain under Indonesian rule with a measure of autonomy, or to become independent. Indonesia has promised the world it would provide a secure framework for a vote free of intimidation, but independent observers are virtually unanimous that this hasn't happened. As the vote nears, the violence in the territory continues, with UN officials reportedly warning of a bloodbath, regardless of the vote's outcome. The latest international observers to the strife-torn island, two US senators and a congressman, say they'll send a message direct to President Clinton that the situation is so bad, armed peacekeepers are now needed in East Timor. Australia's Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer has consistently argued that armed peacekeepers can only enter East Timor if Indonesia agrees to let them in. Mr Downer joins me now from Canberra. KERRY O'BRIEN: Alexander Downer, one week to the East Timor vote. Can you say, with confidence, that it will be a free vote, a vote free of intimidation? ALEXANDER DOWNER, FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER: I can't say there won't be any intimidation over the next week, Kerry, because in your introduction you've made the point clear, there've been of course a large number of incidents over...well look frankly, over a quarter of a century and I'd like to feel that was going to finish in the next week, but I don't think that is very likely. But I think it is fair to say this far out that all the signs are that we'll get a reasonably free and fair vote and a very clear indication of the preferences of the East Timorese people. This is a very historic moment, not just of course for East Timor and Indonesia but in Australian foreign policy. I think one of our great achievements in Government has been the way we've encouraged the Indonesians to allow this ballot to go ahead under United Nations auspices and we look forward to a satisfactory conclusion. KERRY O'BRIEN: By the same token, you agree with that unanimity of observation that Indonesia has not lived up to its promise of providing full security? ALEXANDER DOWNER: There have been a lot of security problems, perhaps the starting point for defining Indonesia's obligations for the purposes of these disc ussions should be May 5, when they signed the tripartite agreement with Portugal and the United Nations in New York. And as you know, there have been a large number of incidents since May 5. Indonesia is responsible for security in East Timor. The situation in a lot of East Timor has got significantly better in the last few weeks. But as you know over the weekend, there was some incidents particularly in the western part of East Timor. Obviously we want to see that finish and I've spoken to the Indonesian Foreign Minister only tonight to reiterate our concern about security breakdown, where it's occurred and the importance of this ballot being seen to be free and fair. And being free and fair, that it will reflect very well on Indonesia if this East Timorese issue is resolved in a democratic way. Of course, it will not reflect well on Indonesia and will cause problems for Indonesia internationally if it ends up by being a debacle, which I don't think it will. KERRY O'BRIEN: You mention the agreement that the Indonesians entered with the United Nations. That agreement centred in part around Indonesia putting in enough police to actually provide the cloak of security. How do you personally feel when you read a cable or a news report that describes how 2,000 refugees who have taken refuge in a church, because they're scared of pro-militia threats and they're deprived for days of even water supplies until American congressmen come in or the UN sticks their hand up and says "You've got to do some thing about this". What are the Indonesian police doing, what are the military doing? ALEXANDER DOWNER: I'm afraid that this has been a problem all the way through. I'm obviously aware of that particular incident and of the representations the United Nations have made over that. I think, though, not to do anything but express my deep concern about these sort of incidents that have occurred, but I think also to say that when you look at this situation in the broad, there have been terrible human rights abuses in East Timor over the last quarter of a century. There have been many, many terrible incidents and we have a passion to see this issue resolved one way or another. We have a process in place now where a week away from a vote, we at last, do have a real opportunity of resolving it. No, not in an environment that we would ideally like, which is completely free of any violence. And we regret that. But nevertheless an opportunity to resolve the issue. I think once it's resolved -- although there'll be a difficult and tense period after the ballot. KERRY O'BRIEN: That's exactly right, isn't it? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Once that's resolved I think we will, particularly down the track when we reach phase three. That is when wide-ranging autonomy comes in, or full independence arrives, when the situation will genuinely stabilise in East Timor. KERRY O'BRIEN: But in the meantime you've got a powder keg potentially. If there is a vote for independence, while everybody sits around waiting for the Indonesian Government to either ratify that vote, or not ratify it, the UN force remains exactly as it is. It's a civilian force. It's not empowered to do anything. Officials are talking about a potential bloodbath. ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, the UN force doesn't remain exactly as it is. The UN force will be significantly augmented. For example, the numbers of civilian police are to be increased from about I think 260/270 to about 460, and importantly, the numbers of military liaison officers -- which at the moment is only 50 -- is to be increased to around 300. So there will be a very substantial increase in the United Nations presence. But also, to say -- and it's important to make this point -- in so-called phase two, the phase after the election, but before the Indonesian Parliament ratifies the decision, in that phase the Indonesians will still be responsible for security. Now, it is my view that the Indonesian police and the Indonesian military will be able to provide that security. KERRY O'BRIEN: How can you say that with confidence? How can you say that with confidence, given the record so far right up to this day? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, I'm saying they will be able to. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. But it is very important that they do and there is no excuse...there is no excuse for them not being able to secure the environment in East Timor after the ballot. KERRY O'BRIEN: Not much consolation to the victims, if there are victims and I hope there aren't, I'm sure we all do...not much consolation to the victims that Indonesia was supposed to do something else? ALEXANDER DOWNER: No, it's not any consolation where security has broken down, of course. But nevertheless, it doesn't detract from the argument that Indonesia has to understand that the eyes of the world are on it and the behaviour of the police and the military and the militias and others in East Tim or, particularly now, particularly over the next few weeks and Indonesia can come out of this exercise with its reputation very substantially enhanced if it does the right thing. And it has the capacity to do the right thing. KERRY O'BRIEN: But they don't seem to have been too concerned about world opinion. I mean you could pluck any number of examples -- the recent militia violence in Maliana, where Indonesia's deputy military commander there was directly implicated. The UN agitated from his removal from that place because of his implication. He's still there. ALEXANDER DOWNER: Look, all of this -- it's not been a perfect record since May 5 and we've never argued that it has been. I think though as I mentioned earlier, the security situation has got better in some parts of East Timor. It is still a problem in the western part of East Timor. Of course, that's not to say there isn't the potential for things to go wrong in other parts of East Timor. Look, this is a point I've reiterated again tonight to the Indonesian Foreign Minister. He understands the point. He says they're doing all they can. We just have to now be sure that the Indonesians live up to their international obligations. KERRY O'BRIEN: When he says they're doing all they can, what do you say to them in the light of the record that's public? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, he's saying a bit more than that. He's saying in shorthand actually. He's saying a bit more than that. He's saying that they're sending messages to East Timor to make sure there isn't a repetition of the sort of incidents we've seen over the course of the weekend. But, yeah, look, at the end of the day, the Indonesian military and the Indonesian police could have done a lot better than they've done. On the other hand, we are on the threshold of a great moment in history at least for our part of the world, and it's important that that moment of history arrives and in the end this tragic saga of East Timor, which has been going on for a quarter of a century, can be resolved. We are on the threshold of a resolution of it. KERRY O'BRIEN: Alexander Downer thanks for talking with us. ALEXANDER DOWNER: It's a pleasure, Kerry. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Didistribusikan tgl. 23 Aug 1999 jam 15:43:30 GMT+1 oleh: Indonesia Daily News Online <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.Indo-News.com/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
