Hi Dave;
I come from an industry that usually just discounts suggestions without
giving them the time of day, then a month or six months later coming up with
the same idea themselves and all of the sudden the idea is brilliant. It is
refreshing to see the interaction you are providing. Sorry about miss spelling
and the double 7 etc I was in a rush to finish it and am prone to these sorts
of mistakes anyway. Following I will try to answer or clarify whatever I
perceive you either missunderstood or clearly questioned.
> Andrew J Guay wrote:
> > Hi; First let me identify myself as a non Solaris
> User as of right
> > now. I have for the last 5-6 years been
> experimenting in Linux,
> > installing many versions from many different
> distributions. To this
> > day I have yet to master the command line
> sufficient to be able to do
> > very much. I have installed some jar, tar.gz, &
> some sh run. apt-get
> > & rpm based programs. I can move in and out of
> root. change
> > directories, init to different run levels and buld
> Nvidia Drivers
> > using their Program. Thats about it. Now to my
> point. I spent 3 hours
> > trying to get Solaris 10 into a single ISO image
> from the 5 different
> > segments. My problem is at least two fold one the
> first immage was
> > downloaded and unziped and goes into a text format.
> Not sure if it
> > should but, when I open it un konqueror I see the
> same image that I
> > expect as it is identical to the other 4 with the
> exception of the
> > "a" designation. Without this being a hobby and
> interesting to me I
> > wouldn't give it the time of day. There are very
> brief instructions
> > for doing the concatonating in Windows and Unix. No
> instructions for
> > Linux I assumed they would be the same as Unix.
> Anyway I made the
> > above statement to say that I'm although not very
> well versed I am
> > certainly not totally clueless and I found getting
> into Solaris so
> > far near immpossible. Which brings me to one of the
> Unix/Linux type
> > difficulties. When the Read Me files are created
> the istructions
> > inevitably are written with idea of whoever is
> reding them knows
> > certain basics. The level of detail that would be
> required to bring
> > the novice to the point of actually being able to
> install the given
> > application is minimal but increadibly crucial.
> >
>
> Would it be fair to summarize the above as you're
> suggesting that the
> instructions for Linux users should perhaps assume a
> lower level of
> skill than they do today?
Yes and No. Yes for Linux. but instructions generically are not specific
enough for all tar.gz tar.bz2 jar sh .run etc & are assuming to much. If the
programmers will spend enough time to create their programs, it seems wastefull
to not create detailed enough instructions to incorporate their full intended
audience. This is a suggestion to any OS creator that wants wide spread use of
their software via Open Source or any other means to propigate cross platform
and be available. As I believe you have shown the ability to do. I would
suggest this to any creator of any Open Source program that is not intended to
be OS Specific. Java is a programming language that comes in at least a couple
of forms that I'm aware of and I'll grant you I'm not as aware as I could be.
It is often used by programmers in order to be cross platform and for certain
platforms that are not fully catered to the install process though not real
complicated require that the installer perform certain steps. If the certain
steps do not incorporate a small detail then those who are installing the
program for the first time will Inevitably need assistance. For instance I
needed to install an updated Java in order to Run the NDBM (Neuros Database
Manipulator) in a Linux version of the past both programs were I believe in
Java but I'm not sure. The NDBM certainly was Java and left out some very small
detail that prevented me from installing it without assistance. And the Java
update left me feeling elated that I was actually able to accomplish it without
an available RPM great feeling but the instructions left me wondering the whole
way through.
>
> I've excerpted the rest and reformatted a little
> since your posting got
> a little run together by the forum posting software:
>
> >
> > My Sugestions 1. Aim Higher, Your aiming to be as
> good as linux, NOT
> > GOOD ENOUGH.
>
> Apparently, the paper doesn't give the proper
> impression. We have two
> goals, on page 20, but neither says anything
> specifically about Linux.
> Where goal #1 says "competitive" that means against
> the competition in
> the markets we're targeting - Linux is one of those
> competitors, but so
> are Windows and OS/X and the other Unix systems.
> Could we aim higher?
> erhaps, but it's not clear that we would get
> sufficient payback for the
> resources required to achieve that goal. The
> question, succinctly, is
> this: does Solaris, given it's other strengths, need
> to be the absolute
> easiest to install for a novice in order to make
> headway in this market?
> Our position right now is that being on par with
> the competition in
> his aspect will be sufficient for Solaris for now.
> One thing that
> oes, though, is to leave an opening for other
> OpenSolaris distributions
> to perhaps specialize in that particular segment.
>
> I'm realizing, though, based on this and a couple of
> other comments that
> the Caiman footnote on page 20 perhaps is giving
> people some specific
> ideas which aren't meant to be the case.
Well Said. I also understand the need to appropriate resources in a cost
effective way. My only caution though is that your competitors Specifically
Windows with the lions share of the market, will be creative and based on the
increased stability & performance over 98SE that XPSP2 achieved, their next is
likely to be more than one attempting to compete might be bargaining for. Linux
has chased them for years with the same sort of strategy, but without enough
forsight due to the lack of cohesiveness throughout the competing
Distributions, including but not limited to standards.
>
> > 2. One aiming point might
> be to create or port software through a tool that
> could do a scan of
> the written in language, a scan of the individuals
> computer hardware
> and make it happen for not only Solaris but the
> multiboot systems
> OSes as well Lets face it JAVA is on just about
> everything Java is
> cross platform Sun Knows Windows, Linux, Unix, Apple
> all of wich have
> thier roots in UNIX.
> I've read this several times and I'm still not sure I
> understand what
> you're suggesting. Can you explain further?
What I'm suggesting and suggesting without any clear understanding of the
scope & or difficulty of creating such a thing. A New Tool that can detect the
language a program is written in, the hardware necessary for running the
program, & install the program into cross platform Operating Systems.
Linux/Unix and I say them both from an open source stand point need to fix the
accessibility of the vast array of software available. Dependencies, lack of
standards, difficulty of installation etc are preventing Open Software from
being widely accepted. You Meaning Sun have cross platformed the OpenOffice
Program it is great and as far as I can see is the best. I say go one step
further be creative do things that haven't been done before. As I have stated
before Sun Knows the different platforms and can if anyone can accomplish such
a thing and do more in this area. I believe that if your OS is going to compete
it will have to stand out. It Now does, due to world records in performance
don't stop bring the mastery that Sun is Capable of to bear in the market
place. This can be done by making yours the best. I would agree that you need
not do more than meet the standard of today with ease of installation but that
is a big undertaking based on what you have stated. My Idea is intended to get
you to think not just about installation but utilization once your OS becomes
installable for the masses.
>
> > 3. Make sure that everything works. I'ts very
> > hard to find a Linux version that all of the
> installable software for
> > that sytem will even function.
>
> That tends to rarely be a problem on Solaris, due to
> our emphasis on
> binary compatibility.
One More Reason Why Solaris Has The Potential To Be The Best.
>
> > 4. Instead of backing off from the
> > idea of a single drive running multiple desktops
> expand on it make it
> > easy. I have a total of 8 hard drives one for both
> Operating Systems
> > on 4 computers. I have recently been thinking of
> putting the
> > Operating systems on a single drive and accessing
> them externally
> > from the computer via a network.
>
> We're not proposing to eliminate diskless support,
> instead rethink it
> for the current and future technologies and try to
> simplify so that we
> have fewer distinct models to maintain. Storage
> networks or iSCSI seem
> to offer much the same capabilities that our current
> diskless-over-NFS
> architecture supplies, so we're not sure there's a
> need for essentially
> duplicate functionality.
Ok I must have missunderstood
>
> > 5. Utilize in a legal way the know
> and available absolutes such as drivers for anyting
> I have ever
> purchsed.
> I'm not sure I completely understand your suggestion,
> but if it's to
> leverage drivers from other platforms, we'd like to.
> The problem is
> hat the architecture of each platform is very
> different in this
> respect. We're always looking at solutions here,
> because we recognize
> driver support is a huge impediment to using Solaris
> on lots of systems.
I can appreciate the complexity of having to create the drivers. Sad to
say for Solaris if the Open Source bank cannot be utilized this could be it's
demise. Thus the need to create tools that can detect & possibly create what is
needed on the fly. I'm not sure even how a driver is created so I'm sure I
speak from ignorance but it seems to me that lets say a DVD-
ROM with an interactive firmware must communicate with the OS in some manner
I'm wondering if their is a way to utilize these communications to create what
is needed. A sort of automated creation, to eliminate the intensity of hand
creating each and every driver via backwards engineering or what have you.
Imagine how popular Solaris would be if hardware manufacturers didn't have to
create drivers & could simply create a more interactive firmware & Solaris
could automatically create the drivers.
>
> > 6. Their almost none of the linux stystems now
> that cannot
> automatically detect my network and at least get me
> on line
> immediately get me on line. By your own admission
> yours cannot. (No
> Excuse) if you want to be what I believe you can be
> based on the
> soundness of Sun This should be a no brainer.
> We can, in some cases, but we don't do it well for
> the common, general
> cases seen today. The Network Automagic project
> (http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/nwam/) is
> going to fix this issue
> in what we hope will be a very flexible, powerful
> way.
> Great!...
> > 7. Stop with the
> grandure of your Solaris system for now. I'm sure
> it's great for the
> server/Corporate community but right now its near
> useless for me. If
> I tried to install your system with all the problems
> you mention in
> your article I would do with it what I have many
> other Linux stystem
> I would pull the disk out of my drive and throw it
> away.
> I'm not sure I understand what the suggestion is
> here.
The suggestion here is until installability is achieved the strong touting
of individual greatness is premature and unwise. Although Solaris has a number
of trumpets to blow and for real good reason no matter how many people have
downloaded the software if they haven't been able to install it they are not
likely to have the end user experience desired, And have a very poor first
impression. Such as myself I cannot get past building the ISO how will I ever
even see if it works on my systems. Concatenating in Linux is something I have
yet to accomplish, thus this is another stumbling block to overcome and many
will give up before they get to realize just how good Solaris might be.
>
> > 7 Aim for
> more users. Linux is not aiming just for the server
> market. Their
> aiming at everyone. You need to do this if you want
> to get where I
> think you want to.
> We're aiming as widely as we can, but we cannot solve
> every problem
> immediately, so we have to have some focus in order
> to make real
> improvements in a reasonable time period. I don't
> think we're overly
> server-centric in what's proposed - if we were
> worried only about that
> market, the Live CD and coexistence with other OS's
> wouldn't be things
> we'd necessarily focus on, for example, because they
> are not
> particularly of interest for server buyers.
Again I probably missunderstood due to the attention given to certain
areas in the discussion.
> Thanks for your interest and thoughts!
>
> Dave
> __Your welcome & I hope you win;
Andrew_____________________________________________
> install-discuss mailing list
> install-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/install-discus
> s
>
This message posted from opensolaris.org
