--- In [email protected], "ai3131" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "kamuininja"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > First, "gekibun" isn't the right word for "manifesto", because
it
> > means a statement issued by agitators. Use "manifesuto"
> or "kouyaku-
> > sho". These days Japanese politicians and journalists
> > use "manifesuto" all the time.>
>
> So, if there were a guerrilla group issuing a formal declaration
of
> faith or something to that effect, would "gekibun" then apply?
Probably yes. Back in the sixties and seventies, rebellaious
students issued "gekibun" statements to urge others to understand
their opinions and take action with them. Typically, "gekibun" is
written by leftists, rightists, or millitary groups who are not
satisfied with the present situation and try to change it.
> By the way, what is the Japanese word for "guerrilla"?
It's "gerira".
> > Second, the word "dare" doesn't go along well with "kudasatta"
> > (not "kudatta"). Honorific verbs should be used together with
> > honorific nouns (in this case, "donata").>
>
> I am not too familiar with honorifics beyond the "teineigo"
> level. "Sonkeigo" is foreign to me at the moment.
>
> > The above sentence should be corrected as follows:
> > -Sono manifesuto wa donata ga kudasatta no desu ka.
>
> Would there be also another question pronoun using "kata" for a
> person? I know of "anatagata", but not much else.
You can say "dochira no kata", but it's seldom used.
> > This sentence is grammatically correct, but totally unnatural.
> You
> > have to use "kureta" insted of "ageta".
> >
> > -Sono manifesuto wa dare ga kureta no ka?>
>
> Then we are saying that someone unknown gave us the manifesto.
Now,
> if the Emperor, for example, were to give us the manifesto, what
> would change in the sentence?
In that case, "Sono manifesuto wa donata ga kudasatta no desuka."
> > This sounds very rude, so you should say "Sono manifesuto wa
dare
> ga kureta no?" or more politely "Sono manifesuto wa dare ga kureta
> no desuka." >
>
> If I were the one to receive the manifesto, yes.
No. It doesn't matter who received the manifesto. The question
form with "verb+ka" sounds very rude in any situation. Maybe a
father will say "Shukudai wa mou yatta (no) ka" to his son.
> Now, if someone else, unrelated to me, received the manifesto and
I
> am asking about who gave them the manifesto (while assuming that
> some unknown person gave it to them), would using "ageru" be
> appropiate?
No. When you don't know who gave it, you can't use "ageru". But
you can say "Sono manifesuto wa dare ni ageru no?"
> The use of "ageta" to refer to an action received by 1st person is
> taboo, I suppose. I remember reading Andrew Horvat's "Japanese
> Beyond Words" and seeing this fact mentioned. I was also told that
> the use of "ageru" as an auxiliary when referring to an out-bound
> favor can sound rather "pushy". Is this true?
Yes, it's true. "Shite ageru" means you give favor to the person
(s), so it can sound pushy in some (or many) cases.
> > > 4. Sono gekibun wa dare ga itadaita ka?
> >
> > Again, grammatically correct but very unnatural. The natural
way
> to
> > say this is:
> >
> > -Sono manifesuto wa dare ga moratta no (desu ka)?>
>
> Here I was assuming that someone from higher up the social ladder
> presented the manifesto. Would this construction still apply? If
my
> memory is correct, "itadaku" is a verb used to refer to something
> like, let's say, a lord handing his vassal the documents to a
tract
> of land.
In that case, "Sono manifesuto o itadaita no wa dare desuka"
or "Dare ga sono manifesuto o itadaita no desuka."
> > > 6. Sono gekibun wa dare ga uketotta ka?
> >
> > This one is OK (except for "gekibun" and the use of "ka").>
>
> "Ka" is no necessary here? Why would that be the case?
No. What I meant was it sounds very rude.
> > You can't use "sonaeta" in this sentence.>
>
> Why would "sonaeru" be inappropiate here? I suppose this would be
> out of the scope of human relations. "Sonaeru" is to offer
something
> as an act of worship, is it not? ITC only a spirit or something
like
> that would be the one to say such a sentence.
Things you can "sonaeru" are "senkou" (incense sticks), "o-sake"
(alcohol), flowers, etc. Certainly you won't put a manifesto in
front of a shrine or a tombstone. If this was the case, one would
say "Sono manifesuto o o-sonae shita no wa dare desuka."
> > > 8. Sono gekibun wa dare ga sashiageta ka?
> >
> > OK, but the comment on Sentence 2 applies here too.
> >
> > Kamui>
>
> See my comment in reply to sentence #2. "Sashiageru" is more
polite
> than just "ageru", is it not?
If someone gave the manifesto to a prominent statesman, for
instance, you should say "Dare ga sono manifesuto o sashiageta no
desuka." You know, when you ask this question, you already know
that the manifesto was given to someone with a high social rank, and
what you really want to know is who gave it. So you should
put "dare" first, not "sono manifesuto".
Kamui
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