This is not FUD. There is uncertainty (the U part) in how fully Apple will support Java in the future. Apple has badly neglected Java in the past and has not commited to not doing the same in the future. What gives you any confidence that Apple will ever release a Java update past what you have now? What happens when Apple decides that Objective-C is the only language that should be used on MacOSX just like they recently decided it was the only appropriate language for the iPutz platform?
I purchased a Mac mini 2 years ago to give MacOSX a whirl. I recently made a major upgrade/purchase of my home desktop system. I really wanted an iMac but with the uncertainty I perceived and felt (whether you recognize it as legitimate or not) I went with an Intel box instead. The decision was not purely monetary even though I think I got a better value with my Intel box. The experience I had with my mini was a few months before Apple released the big Java updates (1.5 and 1.6) and the experience was not stellar for me. Eclipse in particular was sub-par and has only recently gotten better (Cocoa port?). I have no confidence that if I had bought an iMac that a similar situation would not re-occur in the future. What is the difference between Apple saying that non Objective-C applications on the iPutz is not ok from Sun saying non Java applications on the JVM is not ok? What kind of hell would people raise if Sun/Oracle said that only Java could run on the JVM (no groovy/scala/clojure/jruby for you) since other languages would give a sub-optimal user/developer experience? What is Tor (sorry to pick on you, but you did mock Linux :) going to say when Apple decides that JavaFX shouldn't run on MacOSX since it doesn't give the native LOF experience? In the end, we can develop good Java code on any of the major platforms and maybe it's mostly a personal preference, but I prefer the one that doesn't limit my options. I also prefer colleagues that are intellectually honest enough to accept the good and bad of their dealer without becoming an apologist. Lloyd On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Christian Edward Gruber < christianedwardgru...@gmail.com> wrote: > And yet, almost all of my development in the last 10 years has been in > Java, and about 5 years ago I gave up and got a Mac (once they were on Intel > for a rev or two.). I've never looked back. I had some minor annoyance > about JDK6 which quickly was addressed with developers access downloads > which were generally of high quality, and it's been a stellar - stellar - > experience. > > I'm not saying they're awesome as a company towards devs who don't play > their way - I"m just saying I haven't been hit very hard by it, and I"m not > an atypical developer, in the java world. It is FUD. The not-best-place > for me has been linux where I hate the UI all the time (gnome or kde - I > have resorted to WMaker, but it's a hack), and on Windows where I bluescreen > all the time. Again, that's me, that's my preferences, but the Java part > hasn't been an issue, so the above mentioned once took priority. > > Christian. > > On May 4, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Lloyd Meinholz wrote: > > I honestly don't understand why you think questioning that the Mac universe > is maybe not the best place for Java develoers. is fud. In the recent past, > Apple took a long time to update the JDK to 1.6 and patch 1.5. How far > behind in their releases were they? 1, 2 years? They said nothing of the > reasoning, they gave no roadmap for next releases. There is no reason to > think that they might not do something similar again. OpenJDK is not the > same thing. There are disadvantages to having to start up an X11.app to use > Java on the Mac. Things may be ok now, but it wasn't in the recent past and > there is no guarantee that it will be in the future. Back in the day, there > was a huge difference is using blackdown Java on Linux vs. using the Sun > JDK. > > You guys can all love you Macs and MacOSX and iWhatever and they are great > machines, but you should really be more honest with yourself about Apple's > intentions. I'm buying hardware and software to develop for and use in the > way that I think is best, not the way Apple thinks is best. > > Lloyd > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Replies inline. >> >> > >> > 1) Would you agree that given actions and words, Apple also considers >> > Java an inferior and irrelevant platform? >> >> Yes. Especially for desktop apps. Just like ruby, python, mono, the >> entirety of the terminal (including bash, find, grep and friends), >> lua, scala, java, PHP and any other language you care to name. For NON- >> desktop apps though, apple still sells a server OS. They don't sell an >> Objective C based web framework. So, what the heck are you on about? >> >> This might be of some concern to JavaFX users. Minor concern, of >> course - you can claim the OpenJDK is unstable but that's rather >> offensive to the OpenJDK crew, and X11.app works perfectly well if >> that's what it ends up taking, though with the recent popularity >> especially amongst developers neither Apple nor Oracle can afford to >> let such a situation stand. Apple sells servers. Servers run server >> software. Like web servers with webapps on them. Apple themselves use >> WebObjects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebObjects) which they >> themselves wrote. In Java. >> >> Stop fudding. >> >> > >> > 2) While Steve's cross-air might be aimed at Adobe, his flak shooting >> > has broad implications across the board. Do you think he has moral >> > issues with the collateral damage it's creating beyond his own iWorld? >> > (i.e. Novell's MonoTouch customers) >> >> Moral issues? I'm quite sure he's so focussed and passionate on giving >> the world his personal vision of the future that he's so far >> entrenched in "the end justifies the means" it would take a direct >> moral conflict for him to consider anything he steers apple into as >> immoral. That's problematic for us and all the more reason to pressure >> Apple into caring more about such issues. >> >> Stop fudding. You claimed Java support on OS X is unreliable. What >> does Steve's flak shooting and his moral compass have to do with java >> support on Os X? If you were holding on to your hat about somehow >> using java to write for the iPhone or iPad, and / or if you weren't >> but you feel the current situation is very bad news, I'll join you on >> the picket line. iPhone / iPad and macbooks aren't the same thing >> though. So stop fudding. >> >> > >> > 3) Do you see any monopolistic behavioral pattern that suggests Apple >> > is the new Microsoft, except that Apple has the benefit of good taste >> > and is still not big enough as a target for anti-trust litigation? >> >> Yes. If you'd read my other posts you'd know that. >> >> Stop fudding. You claimed Java support on OS X is unreliable. What >> does Apple's stellar rise to power have to do with java support on Os >> X? If anything, OS X being more entrenched than ever DECREASES the >> odds that there won't be a decent java available on OS X. If not >> apple, then sunoracle will step up. They can't not. >> >> Unless you're going to claim that we'll see an app store model in the >> near future of OS X, where you simply cannot run any apps on an OS X >> machine at all unless personally signed and verified by apple. Which >> is completely ludicrous. If that's truly what you think and why you're >> FUDing java on OS X, you should say so, so the folks reading your >> advice can make their own judgement on the likelyhood of this extreme >> scenario. >> >> > >> > /Casper >> > >> > “We’ve been there before, >> > and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer >> > ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the >> > platform.” >> > >> > On May 4, 2:20 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Given that OpenJDK7 already builds on Mac OS X today, I'm guessing >> > > we'll have to wait about a minute after OpenJDK 7 final is released, >> > > depending on how fast your computer can build the OpenJDK. Duh. >> > >> > > Stop fudding. >> > >> > > On May 4, 10:42 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > >> > > > 1. The recent letter to Adobe shows that Apple clearly believe Cocoa >> to the >> > > > the "One True Way". Anything else is going through a "private >> library" or >> > > > "intermediate framework", and we KNOW what happens to those. >> > >> > > > 2. Java access to Cocoa has been deprecated. This is not just lack >> of a >> > > > timely release, it's now permanently locked out of the pearly gates >> (unless >> > > > it goes via JNI, which will mean someone else's framework...) >> > >> > > > 3. As for timely updates of Java? The painfully slow wait for Java >> 6, >> > > > accompanied by no information whatsoever, is now infamous in the >> eyes of >> > > > many developers. Given that Apple now seem to consider Java less >> important >> > > > that it was back then, how long will we have to wait for Java 7 once >> it's >> > > > out? >> > >> > > > On 4 May 2010 02:16, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > Of course it's 100% FUD - the fact that apple no longer considered >> > > > > cocoa libraries for java important is completely irrelevant >> compared >> > > > > to releasing timely java updates. I don't see the availability or >> > > > > timeless of updates of MFC bindings in windows java, or KDE >> bindings >> > > > > for linux java raise anyone's concern. Why should cocoa be any >> > > > > different? >> > >> > > > > On May 3, 5:03 pm, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com> >> wrote: >> > > > > > It's not 100% FUD >> > >> > > > > > Java as a user of the Cocoa API got relegated to a 2nd class >> citizen with >> > > > > > the release of OSX Tiger: >> > > > >http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/qa/qa2001/qa1342.html >> > >> > > > > > On 3 May 2010 15:17, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > Casper, for the fiftheenth bloody time, STOP FUDDING about >> java on >> > > > > > > macs. >> > >> > > > > > >http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ >> > >> > > > > > > OpenJDK for the win. >> > >> > > > > > > Pro-Apple bias amongst geeks is rooted due to the fact that as >> far as >> > > > > > > notebooks are concerned, apple's hardware is fit for a >> programmer >> > > > > > > whereas your average notebook / desktop PC that doesn't host a >> shiny >> > > > > > > apple logo on it is a piece of crap. It's hard to take a >> standpoint >> > > > > > > against a supplier of something no one else supplies. If it >> had been >> > > > > > > related to 'alternative to microsoft', we'd have seen similar >> bias >> > > > > > > towards linux and solaris but that's not really panning out, >> hence >> > > > > > > your theory does not seem to hold water. >> > >> > > > > > > On May 3, 11:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > > > > > > In this particular context, I think the bias is rooted in >> your foe's >> > > > > > > > enemy being your friend. For the longest time Apple was the >> escape >> > > > > pod >> > > > > > > > that hardcore Java developers took from the evil empire's >> mother >> > > > > ship. >> > > > > > > > However, these recent events are really just a predictable >> further >> > > > > > > > escalation, considering Java on a Mac is typically 1½-2 >> years behind >> > > > > > > > other platform releases. It should come as no surprise then, >> when >> > > > > > > > Apple undoubtedly drops all support for client Java within >> the >> > > > > not-too- >> > > > > > > > distant future invoking all too familiar arguments. I do >> feel that >> > > > > > > > several of the posse members took a far more healthy and >> critical >> > > > > > > > outlook on Apple over the past year though, lead by our >> posse editor >> > > > > > > > in chief. >> > >> > > > > > > > /Casper >> > >> > > > > > > > On May 3, 10:45 am, Liam Knox <liamjk...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > > Should I just say Apple is purely after a monopoly i.e. >> the cash, >> > > > > > > > > unlike Joe's stated reasons ? >> > > > > > > > > Does that make it clearer >> > >> > > > > > > > > On May 3, 5:06 pm, Kerry Sainsbury <ke...@fidelma.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:25 PM, phil.swen...@gmail.com< >> > >> > > > > > > > > > phil.swen...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > To describe Apples doctorine on Flash or Java on >> their mobile >> > > > > > > devices >> > > > > > > > > > > > as purely due to a want of consistent user >> experience is just >> > > > > > > nonsense >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > The clear reason.... >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Not convincing! Calling something "nonsense" or >> "clear" >> > > > > doesn't >> > > > > > > make >> > > > > > > > > > > it so. Try forming a cogent argument next time. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Well, Liam's next sentence was "You could equally >> diverge from >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > > > > perceived athletics using objective C of any of their >> mandated >> > > > > > > > > > technologies", which sounded reasonable to me -- apart >> from some >> > > > > > > issues >> > > > > > > > > > with English. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > I believe he meant: >> > >> > > > > > > > > > "You could equally diverge from their perceived >> aesthetics using >> > > > > > > Objective C >> > > > > > > > > > or any of their mandated technologies". >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Does that make it clearer? >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Why would the UI I create using Objective C be any >> better than >> > > > > the UI >> > > > > > > I >> > > > > > > > > > would create using any other framework or language, if >> that >> > > > > framework >> > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > > > language calls the same UI layer that Objective C does? >> > >> > > > > > > > > > In fact I'm sure that some frameworks could actually >> enhance the >> > > > > UI >> > > > > > > that I >> > > > > > > > > > would create, because I make AWFUL user interfaces. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > (sorry for jumping in Liam!) >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Cheers >> > > > > > > > > > Kerry >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to >> the >> > > > > Google >> > > > > > > Groups "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > > > . >> > > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// >> > > > > > > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to >> the Google >> > > > > > > Groups "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > > > . >> > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// >> > > > > > > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > > > Groups >> > > > > > > "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > > > . >> > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// >> > > > > > > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > > > Groups >> > > > > > > "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > > > . >> > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Kevin Wright >> > >> > > > > > mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com >> > > > > > wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com >> > > > > > skype: kev.lee.wright >> > > > > > twitter: @thecoda >> > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups >> > > > > "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > > To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > . >> > > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// >> > > > > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > > > "The Java Posse" group. >> > > > > To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> >> > > > > . >> > > > > For more options, visit this >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more » >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > 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