On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:38 -0700, clay wrote: > - Better Generics: Java lacks reified generics in that it discards type > info at runtime. I agree that this is a deficiency of Java, but the > practical consequences of this seem quite obscure. Sure C# can do List<int> > faster than a Java List<Integer>, but int[] goes much faster in both > languages, and most super performance sensitive code uses that. Other > language features have more tangible benefits.
Are you sure int[] goes "much faster"? Define "much"? I bet the difference in performance between ArrayList<Integer> and int[] in Java 7 and Java 8 is a lot less than you might suggest based on Java 1.0. No measurement, no conclusion. […] > - Tuples: I looked at the new .NET 4.0 tuples in the standard library, and > those aren't any different than any third party tuple library on Java. > Scala and others have more native, language level tuples. I have no idea about .NET, but tuples in Python are great. Multiple values returned from methods/functions. Immutable struct literals. Fabulous stuff. […] > > - F#: I haven't used it, but I've heard great things about F#, and I > suspect they are right. This sounds like a more academic, thinking man's > programming language and that's not what the typical Joe C# dev wants. I've > talked to several C# exclusive shops and interest in F# was very low. > Secondly, I couldn't get this running on Mono on my Linux dev system and F# > clearly isn't the Mono team's priority. On Microsoft forums, most people > said to just use OCaml if you don't want to set up a Windows VM. Ocaml is > on my todo list, along with deeper forays into Haskell, but if F# is just a > .NET flavor of Ocaml, I can just stick with the latter. F# is OCaml without a GIL. If you are interested in real parallelism, you do not want OCaml. I suspect F# use on .NET will win out over C# use over time. > "Maybe the Java community really needs some "the platform is burning" memo > to wake up, stop their self-congratulatory circle-jerk..." The JVM is platform is far from burning in the sense of being destroyed. Java, Scala, Groovy, JRuby, Jython, Clojure, Kotlin, Ceylon. The JVM itself is hosting a vibrant ecosystem. The danger is that every person using it will write their own language. There lies destruction. On the other hand JavaOne does appear to be a self-congratulatory circle-jerk. Especially given the appallingly few numbers of women there. The real question is how to get software development up to 40% or 50% women. > In my observations, even Java developers hate Java :) Or are at best luke > warm about it. The last problem in the Java community is over-confidence :) > There are several people in this Java forum who constantly talk about how > terrible Java is. I don't see anything close to that type of self-loathing > over on C# forums and I don't think that's due to product quality. The average Java programmer doesn't actually care as long as they get paid. Far too many people working with Java do not think about what they are doing and don't care. > "Isn't it quite ironic that people claim that Java is the more "academic" > ecosystem, when – as soon as some technical points are brought up – someone > immediately attacks with the same, sore, old > business-pov/popularity/from-authority response?" > > That's not ironic at all. I use Python a lot because of all the great > libraries and the community built up around it. I don't even think Python > the language itself is terribly special. It's the same with Java. You have > made some technical points against Java, several of which I agree with, but > I still like the libraries, community, etc. I don't care about the TIOBE > index or that kind of mass market. > > BTW, I really like Java as a tool for some use cases, but I don't think I'm > irrational about it. I use a lot of Python (numpy/scipy type stuff) and > JavaScript for web stuff. I'm also trying to invest more learning energy on > science/engineering knowledge rather than programming languages. I'd rather > understand some new machine learning or data processing papers or > engineering skills rather than learn a new programming language feature. > However, the latter is more fun and entertaining. It's like a break from > the hard stuff. Nothing wrong with Python. -- Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:[email protected] 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: [email protected] London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
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