On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 23:54:35 +0200, Simon Ochsenreither
<[email protected]> wrote:
It's not an attack: it's the reality check that says that in academia
you
discuss about what's the better technology on paper, outside academia
you
discuss about what's the better technology in the sense that sells more.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe that's the reason why this mailing list has become such an ghetto.
There seems to be no chance to have a sensible, constructive debate about
technical topics without people thinking they have to do "reality checks"
on other people (and think that's "OK"?).
You seem to talk as a lawyer at a trial, moving the target playing with
words. Sorry, this is my honest impression. I've asked for a reality
checks of *facts*, the main being that C# is less popular than Java. You
have moved the discussion to reality check on people, which is not clearly
my intention.
In my opinion, you're not even trying to participate constructively, you
make up non-rational requirements instead to kill of discourse.
I'm putting questions and you aren't answering. Guess who's not
participating constructively?
Basically,
every technology would need to get more "popular" than Java before you
would assess it's technical benefits and disadvantages? Is that right?
No, it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if a technology has got
benefits, but doesn't get popular, a reasonable theory (among others) is
that most people don't think those benefits are so relevant (you might
propose alternate theories, it's what I've asked, and you didn't reply).
Sure, the conservative attitude of decision-makers, most of which tend to
be conservative, doesn't help, but I say this can cause delays rather than
full stops. Hell, I've experienced a lot of conservative people ten years
ago that opposed to the introduction of Java (or C#) defending C++ or C,
but those resistances proved to be futile. If this isn't happening again,
there must be other reasons.
I've read for instance how the thread went on the branch about benchmarks
of int[] and such. Interesting, but at the moment I don't know any
customer who needs to work with an array of millions of floats, thus
considering those benchmarks relevant for picking C# (not counting the
fact that, in the rare case I got one, a specific, optimized
implementation backed by float[] would probably perform well, even though
of course it wouldn't be a perfect fit with other collections).
Of course it could be plain ignorance of people, but while I reckon that
most people are ignorant of the existence of Scala, this is not true about
C#. I can't recall anybody who knows Java and doesn't know that at least
C# exist.
I try to have an intellectual debate, while you try to turn it into some
sort of popularity contest, which I'm – clearly, as indicated – not
interested in.
The popularity *is* the topic, because I think that if I propose a new
technology I want to change the world, not just praise my group because
we're so smart, too bad the rest of the world can't catch up. Now,
comparing technologies by benchmarking doesn't make much sense (of course
it depends on benchmarks and we're talking about micro-benchmarks). If I
read that Akka does massive amounts of transactions, that's a different
kind of benchmark and I'm more interested in it. You are starting with the
pre-assumption that those Java limitations are life changers. I'm saying
that I first look what people do and figure out that those needs are the
life changer. So, rather than benchmarks I'd like to see real-world
stories where people say "We dropped Java and moved to C# because we
couldn't do that". I'm not seeing much about that, because the net average
measurement of these trends is - figure out - popularity.
PS In a post here from yesterday I've read about people moving to
"smaller" Java systems and Python. Not C#. And how does Python do
benchmarks on millions of floats? Or perhaps what people appreciated is a
different thing? I'd be happy to know by the OP more details on this.
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
"We make Java work. Everywhere."
http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - [email protected]
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