And the moment you put business logic in something else but EJB, you need to
control transactions which takes us back to my original question to Marc
Fleury. When does JBOSS plan to support the use of UserTransaction from a
VM that is not running JBOSS? Marc seems to discourage this usage in one
reply, so my second question is why? Thanks.
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen fogleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
another VM Plan
> well not necessarily just EJB... although i would put most of it there.
> probably 99% of it would be in session EJB. I would use limited servlets
for
> business logic. mostly i would do....
>
> JSP ------ Servlet ------- EJB
> views controllers model/business logic
>
> Al
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phan Anh Tran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
> another VM Plan
>
>
> > Basically, you are telling me to move all business logic from APP to an
> EJB.
> > I just don't believe it is always desirable to keep all business logic
> > within EJBs. I don't think a business layer necessarily has to consist
of
> > EJBs alone.
> >
> > Anh
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Jencks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 8:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
> > another VM Plan
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Ok, this is a slightly different question than the one I thought you
> were
> > > asking, and as you say, 2pc is not relevant. Here are my thoughts on
> your
> > > proposed design:
> > >
> > > 1. I assume that you do not want to hold transactions open while
waiting
> > > for human input. If you need to for some reason, you are apt to be in
> > > trouble under high load as all those open transactions consume server
> > > resources for unknown and long periods of time.
> > >
> > > 2. I like to think of the architecture of applications like this, in
5
> > > layers.
> > >
> > > presentation layer (what do I see)----------- jsp
> > >
> > > presentation manager (workflow control, what do I see
next) ------------
> > > servlet
> > >
> > > service subsystem (business logic, data
> manipulation) -------------session
> > > ejb
> > >
> > > model subsystem (data model, system state) -------------------entity
ejb
> > >
> > > persistence subsystem ---------(jdbc, db)
> > >
> > > I find this really clears up most of my questions about where to put
> code,
> > > and makes changes much simpler and more local. In this framework, I
> > > haven't found a case where knowledge of transactions need to get above
> the
> > > business logic layer. I would be curious to know if you have an
example
> > > where this is appropriate.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > david jencks
> > >
> > > On 2001.06.16 21:07:20 -0400 Phan Anh Tran wrote:
> > > > Let's forget the 2PC stuff for now...Here is a scenaro:
> > > >
> > > > [APP/VM-1] <-> [EJB-1,EJB-2,...EJB-n/JBOSS/VM2] <-JDBC->
[DataStore-1]
> > > >
> > > > Each method of each of the EJBs forms a transaction by themselves if
> > > > noone
> > > > else issues explicit transaction control a la "begin,commit,abort".
> > > >
> > > > APP takes on this role. APP decides the set of EJBs' methods will
> form
> > 1
> > > > transaction. Same problem, replace APP with say a servlet running
in
> a
> > > > Servlet Container in a different VM and you still need the solution
> > where
> > > > it
> > > > is possible to obtain a transaction from a separate VM.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, you could move the all the APP transaction control into one
> single
> > > > method of one single EJB...but that's not always desirable, I
> believe...
> > > >
> > > > Anh
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Jencks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss
> in
> > > > another VM Plan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I think the advice to stay away from distributed transactions is
> > > > universal
> > > > > design advice. Basically using distributed transactions just
about
> > > > > guarantees bad performance, as resources get tied up waiting for
the
> > > > 2pc
> > > > to
> > > > > make its way to all those other machines or vms not once but
twice.
> > If
> > > > at
> > > > > all possible, if you need things to happen on several machines,
use
> > > > > transactional messaging (jms, jbossmq) to break the work up into
> > pieces
> > > > > that can be all done on one machine + 1 resource manager + 1
message
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > next machine. I don't know what jboss/jbossmq actually does in
this
> > > > > scenario, however with a db and a message que as your
transactional
> > > > > resources the db (the slow part) could use 1pc:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. prepare message commit
> > > > > 2. 1pc on db
> > > > > 3. commit message.
> > > > >
> > > > > This should be roughly as fast as 1pc to the db, since jbossmq is
> > > > running
> > > > > in the same vm as the rest of jboss.
> > > > >
> > > > > I learned the most about this subject from the (pre ejb) book
"High
> > > > > Performance Client Server" by Loosley and Douglas, isbn
> 0-471-16269-8
> > > > >
> > > > > david jencks
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2001.06.16 12:57:44 -0400 Phan Anh Tran wrote:
> > > > > > We are at design time for a real system. Your suggestion "don't
> use
> > > > it"
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > that due to JBOSS specific implementation issues or is it a
> > > > universal
> > > > > > design advice?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you have a copy of Vlada talk? Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anh
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "marc fleury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 3:24 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside
> JBoss
> > > > in
> > > > > > another VM Plan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes anatoly ackerman finished an integration of Tyrex (real
DTM)
> > in
> > > > > > JBoss.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We truly truly discourage the use of DTx (even Vlada matena
had
> a
> > > > full
> > > > > > talk
> > > > > > > on that). So my question is "are you at design time" (in which
> > case
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > use it) or is this "real life".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > marcf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > |-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > > |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Phan
> > > > Anh
> > > > > > > |Tran
> > > > > > > |Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 3:11 AM
> > > > > > > |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > > |Subject: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside
> JBoss
> > > > in
> > > > > > > |another VM Plan
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |When does JBOSS plan to support the obtaining and using a
> > > > transaction
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > |another VM? 2.2.3? 2.3? Anytime in the near future?
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |[App/VM1] <-> [EJB1,EJB2,.../JBOSS/VM2]
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |App needs to setup and control the transactions, so in
essence,
> > my
> > > > > > > |App needs
> > > > > > > |to be able to obtain a UserTransaction via JNDI from a
separate
> > > > VM.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > |believe this feature is not supported right now, but I would
> like
> > > > to
> > > > > > > |understand when the feature is planned to be incorporated
into
> > > > JBOSS?
> > > > > > > |Thanks.
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |Anh
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > |_________________________________________________________
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