Are you talking about the JTS/JTA or the EJB specification? Thanks.
Anh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen fogleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
another VM Plan
> Actually from a specification point the only thing required to support
> userTransaction is the session EJB. container providers --may-- chose to
> allow access to the Usertransaction object outside of a session EJB but it
> is not transportable accross vendors. It would seem that even the
> specification would want you to keep that logic in the Session EJB, and
not
> move it from that tier.
> That would in general cover the why :)
>
> Al
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phan Anh Tran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 1:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
> another VM Plan
>
>
> > And the moment you put business logic in something else but EJB, you
need
> to
> > control transactions which takes us back to my original question to Marc
> > Fleury. When does JBOSS plan to support the use of UserTransaction from
a
> > VM that is not running JBOSS? Marc seems to discourage this usage in
one
> > reply, so my second question is why? Thanks.
> >
> > Anh
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Allen fogleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss in
> > another VM Plan
> >
> >
> > > well not necessarily just EJB... although i would put most of it
there.
> > > probably 99% of it would be in session EJB. I would use limited
servlets
> > for
> > > business logic. mostly i would do....
> > >
> > > JSP ------ Servlet ------- EJB
> > > views controllers model/business logic
> > >
> > > Al
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Phan Anh Tran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:53 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss
in
> > > another VM Plan
> > >
> > >
> > > > Basically, you are telling me to move all business logic from APP to
> an
> > > EJB.
> > > > I just don't believe it is always desirable to keep all business
logic
> > > > within EJBs. I don't think a business layer necessarily has to
> consist
> > of
> > > > EJBs alone.
> > > >
> > > > Anh
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Jencks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 8:52 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside JBoss
> in
> > > > another VM Plan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, this is a slightly different question than the one I thought
you
> > > were
> > > > > asking, and as you say, 2pc is not relevant. Here are my thoughts
> on
> > > your
> > > > > proposed design:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. I assume that you do not want to hold transactions open while
> > waiting
> > > > > for human input. If you need to for some reason, you are apt to
be
> in
> > > > > trouble under high load as all those open transactions consume
> server
> > > > > resources for unknown and long periods of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. I like to think of the architecture of applications like this,
> in
> > 5
> > > > > layers.
> > > > >
> > > > > presentation layer (what do I see)----------- jsp
> > > > >
> > > > > presentation manager (workflow control, what do I see
> > next) ------------
> > > > > servlet
> > > > >
> > > > > service subsystem (business logic, data
> > > manipulation) -------------session
> > > > > ejb
> > > > >
> > > > > model subsystem (data model, system
state) -------------------entity
> > ejb
> > > > >
> > > > > persistence subsystem ---------(jdbc, db)
> > > > >
> > > > > I find this really clears up most of my questions about where to
put
> > > code,
> > > > > and makes changes much simpler and more local. In this framework,
I
> > > > > haven't found a case where knowledge of transactions need to get
> above
> > > the
> > > > > business logic layer. I would be curious to know if you have an
> > example
> > > > > where this is appropriate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > david jencks
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2001.06.16 21:07:20 -0400 Phan Anh Tran wrote:
> > > > > > Let's forget the 2PC stuff for now...Here is a scenaro:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [APP/VM-1] <-> [EJB-1,EJB-2,...EJB-n/JBOSS/VM2] <-JDBC->
> > [DataStore-1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Each method of each of the EJBs forms a transaction by
themselves
> if
> > > > > > noone
> > > > > > else issues explicit transaction control a la
> "begin,commit,abort".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > APP takes on this role. APP decides the set of EJBs' methods
will
> > > form
> > > > 1
> > > > > > transaction. Same problem, replace APP with say a servlet
running
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > > Servlet Container in a different VM and you still need the
> solution
> > > > where
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > is possible to obtain a transaction from a separate VM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure, you could move the all the APP transaction control into
one
> > > single
> > > > > > method of one single EJB...but that's not always desirable, I
> > > believe...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anh
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "David Jencks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:34 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from outside
> JBoss
> > > in
> > > > > > another VM Plan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > I think the advice to stay away from distributed transactions
is
> > > > > > universal
> > > > > > > design advice. Basically using distributed transactions just
> > about
> > > > > > > guarantees bad performance, as resources get tied up waiting
for
> > the
> > > > > > 2pc
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > make its way to all those other machines or vms not once but
> > twice.
> > > > If
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > all possible, if you need things to happen on several
machines,
> > use
> > > > > > > transactional messaging (jms, jbossmq) to break the work up
into
> > > > pieces
> > > > > > > that can be all done on one machine + 1 resource manager + 1
> > message
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > next machine. I don't know what jboss/jbossmq actually does
in
> > this
> > > > > > > scenario, however with a db and a message que as your
> > transactional
> > > > > > > resources the db (the slow part) could use 1pc:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. prepare message commit
> > > > > > > 2. 1pc on db
> > > > > > > 3. commit message.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This should be roughly as fast as 1pc to the db, since jbossmq
> is
> > > > > > running
> > > > > > > in the same vm as the rest of jboss.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I learned the most about this subject from the (pre ejb) book
> > "High
> > > > > > > Performance Client Server" by Loosley and Douglas, isbn
> > > 0-471-16269-8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > david jencks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 2001.06.16 12:57:44 -0400 Phan Anh Tran wrote:
> > > > > > > > We are at design time for a real system. Your suggestion
> "don't
> > > use
> > > > > > it"
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > that due to JBOSS specific implementation issues or is it a
> > > > > > universal
> > > > > > > > design advice?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you have a copy of Vlada talk? Thanks.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anh
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "marc fleury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 3:24 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from
outside
> > > JBoss
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > another VM Plan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > yes anatoly ackerman finished an integration of Tyrex
(real
> > DTM)
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > JBoss.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We truly truly discourage the use of DTx (even Vlada
matena
> > had
> > > a
> > > > > > full
> > > > > > > > talk
> > > > > > > > > on that). So my question is "are you at design time" (in
> which
> > > > case
> > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > use it) or is this "real life".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > marcf
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > |-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > > > > |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of
> > > Phan
> > > > > > Anh
> > > > > > > > > |Tran
> > > > > > > > > |Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 3:11 AM
> > > > > > > > > |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > > > > |Subject: [JBoss-user] Obtaining a transaction from
outside
> > > JBoss
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > |another VM Plan
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |When does JBOSS plan to support the obtaining and using a
> > > > > > transaction
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > |another VM? 2.2.3? 2.3? Anytime in the near future?
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |[App/VM1] <-> [EJB1,EJB2,.../JBOSS/VM2]
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |App needs to setup and control the transactions, so in
> > essence,
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > > |App needs
> > > > > > > > > |to be able to obtain a UserTransaction via JNDI from a
> > separate
> > > > > > VM.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > |believe this feature is not supported right now, but I
> would
> > > like
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > |understand when the feature is planned to be incorporated
> > into
> > > > > > JBOSS?
> > > > > > > > > |Thanks.
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |Anh
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |
> > > > > > > > > |
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