Tomm,
I respectfully disagree on several aspects:
>>And you're mixing logic in your view.
>Absolutely the contrary. Trying to do this with just JSP requires
mixing the logic and the view. It is precisely this that the applet would
eliminate.
I am talking about MVC
separation in the J2EE sense -- that is you DO hand off your "bare" HTML JSP
templates that are working to a web designer to beautify. Yes, JSPs
(and also, as you rightfully said ASP and CFML pages) need to be specially
formatted for this, and VIEW must be something more like a template, so Velocity
or Turbine would be even better for MVC then JSPs, and the logic is better
moved to a Servlet, to make it clean and have a nice controller Servlet for
tracking, etc. I think that you know all
this.
But I digress.
<MAIN POINT
1>
My main point was
this:
---- With JSP GUI (written with MVC in mind) you will
NEVER need to change your JAVA CODE to change the
color/size/placement/formatting of this page after you're done. This is
strictly HTML work.
------ On the other hand, with the GUI Applet, you WILL
have to change your JAVA SWING CODE every time your project manager wants
to change the colors, or labels, or some other sh*t they make their business to
change 17 times a week. This is a pain.
Agreed?
</MAIN POINT
1>
<MAIN POINT
2>
>An applet would not need to refresh the
entire page just to display new information.
Sure.
However, if anyone ever tried to build this kind of an applet and make it
run in their web page, they would have to involve a specialized interface not a
simple HTML form-based HTTP GET/POST (mainly java.net.URL) , and/or use frames
and lots of JavaScript communication (BTW: I am currently working on just such a
project!!) This can be done, but this is by no means
trivial.
IMHO,
I think this comes down to utility and "appropriate technology". I think I
can make this run with JSP/Servlets in <1 hr. From scratch.
Can you code and make this kind on an applet you're talking about and
make it run in that time frame? You will need to code the DB calls (as
does the JSP solution), but in addition you'll need the Swing GUI, applet logic,
java.net.URL get/post or 100 lines of JavaScript and HTML frame
mess...
If so,
you are indeed a master Jedi, and my hat's off to you.
</MAIN POINT
2>
Respectfully,
Greg
____________________________________________________-----Original Message-----Greg Nudelman wrote:
From: Tomm Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 1:08 PM
To: JDJList
Subject: [jdjlist] RE: JSP TAGS Interaction
How so? The user's selections would be instantly available to the applet. It would not have to check to see what was defined in request space in order to determine which selection was made in which selection box. You would need logic just to find out which box the user selected.CONVOLUTED? Sorry Tomm, but IMHO an applet would be 3x more convoluted.
True. But an applet consisting of three combo boxes and a little code would be fairly small.And the user would have to wait for that thing to load.
Yes, but as web sites grow in sophistication (in order, I might add, to meet the growing expectations of users), compounding "browser settings issues" is already pretty much a permanent part of the environment.Also, the age old debate: you compound the user browser settings issues.
That's the whole point. An applet would not need to refresh the entire page just to display new information.And refresh.
Which is easier than debugging JSP? ...on a page that must check the circumstances under which it is being loaded so it can react differently depending on what triggered the (re)load? I really don't think so.And the pain of debugging of the applet.
Absolutely the contrary. Trying to do this with just JSP requires mixing the logic and the view. It is precisely this that the applet would eliminate.And you're mixing logic in your view.
No matter how it is implemented, you have to hit the DB. That is a given.And you still can not make those menus dynamic, unless you hit the DB anyway, so back to square 1. etc.
Too bad. Applets do have their limitations. JSP (and ASP and CFM and ...) have their limitations, also. You should be ready to select the best tool for the job.I have built enough applets to know never to touch one again, if I can help it.
MVC doesn't mean your programmers develop the JSP page and then hand it off to the designers to pretty it up. MVC means the programmers never see a JSP page and the designers never see Java. The only way you can strictly adhere to MVC principles using JSP is to have ALL your code in custom tag handlers. Technically, even "<%= someVar %>" is Java code and should not appear on a page.JSP is the way to go. Code and unit test the logic in <1 hr and then let your web designers deal with colors etc. MVC all the way!
Tomm
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