I really agree with most of what Mike has to say here, and he said it very well. As far as the canonical pantheon, I propose that artists like Beethoven, Shakespeare, Miles Davis, The Beatles, Joni Mitchell would endure regardless of Harold Bloom, et al.
>Many people would name [Beethoven] as an important >composer or as their favourite composer without knowing much more than >the opening motif (is it sacrilegious to say 'riff' here?) of the 5th symphony, >or 'Nessun Dorma' Or even without knowing that "Nessun Dorma" was composed by Puccini! (insert your favorite emoticon here) >Kenny G may 'technically' be a very good musician (damning with faint praise!) >but lacks something; call it soul, call it feeling, call it what you want Here we differ: Kenny G is *not* a good musician, technically or otherwise (bad tone, out of tune, poor note choices, arrhythmic feel, bad taste). However, I think he does have soul, his own version of it at least (everyone does), and I think he's sincere. This goes a long way to explain his popularity. >I love Miles >Davis and happily accept that there are other, better players than Miles >but he does it for me. There *aren't* better players than Miles ... there are those who may play faster or higher, but no one, on *any* instrument, plays *music* better than Miles. Of course, many musicians play music equally as well as Miles, but none better. >One of my all-time musical highlights was listening to Wayne Shorter and >Herbie Hancock's quartet playing here in BCN in around 1994. They played >a piece without bass or drums, just the two of them, a very slow, tender, >beautiful piece of music which was as perfect as music can get. If I ever >reach that state of bliss again I'll be very happy I've heard an entire concert of just Wayne and Herbie, and it was bliss for me and a saxophone playing friend. But for some of the season subscribers sitting in front of us, it was clearly something else. One of them said, "This isn't jazz!" to which another replied, "It's bullshit, that's what it is!". And they weren't alone; at intermission they, and many others, left, after which my friend turned to me and said, "Well, this music isn't for everyone. Unfortunately, everyone is here." Mike, if you want to achieve that blissful state again, get hold of their duo album, "1+1" -Fred In a message dated 12/7/01 6:21:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Marian said > >>>Within the context of Kenny G, he might be playing saxophone better than >he > >ever played before - to the best of his ability. There is value in that >effort at perfection. << > >Fred said > >>>Why, for instance, almost 200 years after his death, do most of us still >agree that Beethoven was a great composer? It can't only be because a lot >of people simply dig his music ...<< > >now me: > >If we look at people who write words instead of people who write and play >music, then perhaps we can ask, and provisionally answer, another, related >question. "What's the difference between writing and literature?" Answer- >"Literature (the big L is important) is what gets taught in school/university" >(in preference to other stuff which is written but not considered worthy >of being taught). Artistic judgments are made, obviously, but the argument >is about the criteria used when making these choices. In relation to literature, >at least in the 'west', we have what Harold Bloom refers to as 'The Western >Canon' and this canon is chosen by a very small number of academics, based >on whatever criteria they decide is relevant. Thus if, say, Mike Pritchard, >were considered an important and / or influential author by Malcolm Bradbury, >David Lodge, Frank Kermode etc (in the British context; substitute Bloom, >Said, Sontag, Culler etc in north america) then his work would appear on >the curriculum at the universities where they teach and thus successive >generations would study his work, doctoral theses would be written about >him and his work, and these doctoral students would, once they get tenure, >specialise in the teaching of his works. Thus successive generations etc. > >The publicity snowball effect works here too. The book reviewers are frequently >influenced by what the academics believe to be 'worthy' books (after all, >the reviewers are often the same academics) therefore elevating the sales >of the books (frequently written by their colleagues) and reaching a wider >audience. Thus we have a nice little mutual back-scratching mafia saying >wonderful things about each other's novels. Look at the nepotistic and >incestuous (do I go too far?) novels and reviews by Amis, Hornby, Barnes, >McEwan and others in the british arts scene. I'm sure jonilistas in the >US and Canada can think of similar cases over there. > >I'm not saying there are people in the canon who don't deserve to be there, >or that the canon excludes people who deserve to be in - this is a much >longer and complex argument - but the point is that some are in and some >are out, some are good and some not so good. Unfortunately there will always >be people who are unhappy with what is defined as literature, and often >rightly. > >To try and tie in Fred and Marian's arguments I would agree with both of >them up to a point. Beethoven has lasted because he is a canonical composer; >he has entered the pantheon of composers, and has achieved all the 'solidity' >associated with the metaphor. Many people would name him as an important >composer or as their favourite composer without knowing much more than >the opening motif (is it sacrilegious to say 'riff' here?) of the 5th symphony, >or 'Nessun Dorma' as sung by Pavarotti, best known to brits from the 1990 >soccer world cup. Many people would instinctively screw up their face at >the name Stockhausen and Schonberg (AO accents omitted) yet would be hard >pressed to say when they have heard anything by these composers. The reputation >(and what is fashionable) is all. 'Land of snap decisions, land of short >attention spans, nothing is savoured long enough to really understand'. >People don't have enough time or inclination to do the work, they base >their artistic criteria on Sunday Supplement reviews and decorate their >coffee tables with the flavour of the month. How many times have we heard >people talk of the works of Toni Morrison, James Joyce, Heinrich Boll and >Julio Cortazar (AO) when they have only, at best, a superficial passing >relationship to their work? Remember Woody Allen's scene in 'Annie Hall' >about Marshall McLuhan? There is so much bullshit about that it is wonderful >to read people on this list who have taken time to get under the surface >of the work. Thanks for enlightening me / the others. > >Kenny G may 'technically' be a very good musician (damning with faint praise!) >but lacks something; call it soul, call it feeling, call it what you want >but whatever it is, it's not there when you hear him play. Michael Bolton >singing like Marvin Gaye is another example. Technically, I suppose Bolton >is a good singer (what do I know?) but he leaves me cold. Some players >are 'inferior' but have 'it'; maybe 'emotion' is the word. I love Miles >Davis and happily accept that there are other, better players than Miles >but he does it for me. Think of the absurdity of those comparisons of the >fastest guitar player. When I was a teenager everyone talked about Alvin >Lee of Ten Years After as the bees knees 'cos of his speed. Well, speed >isn't everything, but put that speed together with technique and 'feeling' >and you have the makings of a great guitar player. I'm thinking here of >Albert Lee but jonilistas will be able to choose their own favourites. > >Marian, Kenny G may be able to play better now than when he was younger >and may be putting more effort and 'art' into his playing and that effort >does have value, but for me he is objectively and subjectively inferior >to Wayne Shorter, Jan Garbarek and Courtney Pine to talk of only three >current soprano players. > >One of my all-time musical highlights was listening to Wayne Shorter and >Herbie Hancock's quartet playing here in BCN in around 1994. They played >a piece without bass or drums, just the two of them, a very slow, tender, >beautiful piece of music which was as perfect as music can get. If I ever >reach that state of bliss again I'll be very happy, and I'll let you know >about it. I can't imagine Kenny G, the Jeffery Archer of Soprano players, >even getting close. > >Sorry this was so long, it's a long weekend here and there's nothing worse >than someone with opinions, a modem, and with time on his hands.
