I like your father's saying, John. You are also a very insightful person. I enjoyed reading your response.
Best- Heather -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of John van Tiel Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 5:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Just some loose, unfinished thoughts of a Dutch lurker (NJC) On the reactions in the 'Middle East' thread: My father used to say (emphatically - and like many fathers he repeated it about 763 times): "If there is a problem, find a solution and NEVER a scapegoat - If you look for a scapegoat, you'll only end up with another problem." -- My father is/was not a naive man. And here I see Colin, Laurent, Mack, mack, Vince, Suzan, Mike & many others getting all worked up, and some of them fortressing themselves in angry eloquence. Please continue to agree to disagree. It's funny, but when the disagreement evolves to personal antagonism - either expressed directy or between the lines - I always feel the need to emphasize what I like about the people involved. So here goes... I know Colin as one of the worst-spelling but fascinating individuals on the list, always deeply honest (though somewhat clumsy in expressing this honesty sometimes). Someone I would love to meet one day. I have talked off-list with Laurent, shared my musical passion with him in a very rewarding manner. I judge his opinions highly, even when they are not mine at times. He has made several remarks that really made me sit down and think for a long time, even reconsider my opinion. Both Macks I only know from the list - they are friends because they are JMDL'rs (i.e. they share a love for Joni's music AND they share indefinable patterns of thoughts/feelings/expression that I recognize so strongly with everyone from the list whom I meet or with whom I correspond). My only objection to Vince is that he once almost left the list (NEVER do that again, Sir!). When I read Suzan's anger, I was mainly surprised. Are there any other subjects that make you angry or emotional, Suzan ... they bring out a very eloquent writer. Anything posted by Mike from Barcelona - although he does not know it - I always read with special attention ... he translates his first-hand knowledge of both the US and Europe into, I believe, very perceptive and to-the-point observations. Which brings me to thoughts on Europe / US: When I am in the US (which is several months a year), I seem to see so many things that, to me, look wrong, or make me feel uncomfortable: The apparent lack of social security, certainly compared to my own country; the money class system; the racial segregation; the violence and the fact that (in the city in which I stay) no one dares to walk outside after dark; the second amendment; the Christian fundamentalism (lesson one: replace "Love Thy Neighbour" by "Love Thy Neighbour As Long As He Does What You Want Him To Do"); George Double You; the food & the attitude to food; the fact that so many people have a hard time distinguishing between 'price' and 'value'; malls; the amount of people that seem to think that have made work their God (live to work? or work to live?); the flag-waving patriotism that so easily transcends into hate; the superficiality of 99% of all non-PBS TV; the widespread drug use and the mindless way in which the "War On Drugs" is fought (people who smoke pot imprisoned??); etc. AND YET... back home in the Netherlands I ALWAYS defend the US. I speak of its natural beauty; the opportunities; the wonderful sense of freedom it gives'; the many great people I met and meet, time and again; the open minds; Ben & Jerry's; the willingness to give people a chance; the general resilience; the genuine belief in democracy; maple syrup; and most of all ... the lack of allowing dismissive cynicism to become a ruling principle of life (so common in many Europeans). When I am in France, I speak the language relatively fluently, yet I feel a deep divide. I am stunned by the quality of living (food) and by the beauty of the country. I love the fact that any meal should at least take one hour (famous French saying: "I did not have luch today, I just had a takeaway sandwich."). The Dutch and the French have essentially different cultures (non-authoritarian vs authoritarian) and many French openly loathe Dutch permissiveness, yet France draws about 45% of Dutch tourism. (Observation: Hardly anyone ever says "I like the French." What one always hears "I like France.") As far as I can see, the French - like conservative Brits - generally are afraid to be snowed under by 'foreign elements' (cultures rather than people), and translate this to arrogance (in all its variations). If it eases the US mind, I don't think that the French (which French?) like the Dutch (which Dutch?) either. UK? I have always been an anglophile. Still am. Graduated in England from an old university. Love English literature, the landscape, the humour, the warmth of the people, Vaughan Williams, English football, English breakfasts & pub food (often as revolting as American fast food, but so wonderfully greasy), the love for traditions, etc. etc. etc. And yet, I see a country in which so many people have scars from bullying peer behaviour, yet who continue to believe that compromise is a sign of weakness. I see a country that is proud of its low fascist vote rate, yet displays serious xenophobia everywhere. Germany. The bad boys of Europe. The country everyone loves to hate. Lots of "latent nazis". Yet, whenever I visit the country, I always feel that I am in the most open, hospitable, warm, friendly and inviting country. With wonderful people who love to read and philosophize. Ridiculously beautiful women and far too many of them. Beautiful landscapes, great cakes, a deep concern about the well-being of everyone else. Etc. And whenever I speak to someone in Holland, England, Denmark or France about being Germany, they all agree: it's a wonderful country. And time and again I see that same shade of confusion: Wait a minute, am I being positive about Germany? Israel. Holland has always had strong feelings about supporting Israel (although, currently, Israel - or rather Sharon and his supporters - is/are depicted in the media as the 'bad force'). In the eighties, Dutch soldiers went to the Middle East as UN peacekeepers (Lebanon - Israel). I know dozens of them personally, from sergeants to full colonels. They all went as friends of the Israelis; they all came back feeling betrayed by the Israelis for some reason or other, and - without any exception - very positive about the 'Arabs' they met. They all came back confused. Not one exception among the people I met. Are these relevant observations. Not really. These are just a few thoughts that came up while reading through a bunch of digests this morning. They are probably full of the very generalizations that incited me to start writing. Still I wanted to write them down. Because this community and everyone in it is so dear to me. Whenever I see a discussion getting heated as it did over the past few days, when voices are raised and posts seem to be written in ALL CAPS - I suddenly realize how important it was what my mother so often did ... she would come into the living room and say: "Coffee everone? Apple pie? I baked it myself. It's still warm." My mother was/is no Edith Bunker. Apple pie, Colin? Laurent? Mack? mack? Mack? Vince? Suzan? Mike? Everyone? John (the Dutch Uncle) And while we're eating the apple pie, let's listen to Ladies of the Canyon today. It's such a Sunday album.
