Thanks to Catheroine McKay for the transcription.
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The Divas Last Stand
by James Reginato
W Magazine
December 2002
Joni Mitchell never does anything by the book. Divas are supposed to be
late, but she shows up early for an interview. At 7:25 p.m., five minutes
before a 7:30 dinner reservation, she is already ensconced in one of the
walk-in-closet-size booths in the garden of the Hotel Bel Air. Living in a
Spanish-style house not far away, she has become something of a nocturnal
creature. After a number of stalking scares, she says she tends to stay up
all night, then sleep until early afternoon.
Although her blue eyes and flaxen hair are still luminous, she has lost her
waiflike leanness. But wearing an understated black dress by Ann
Demeulemeester and chain-smoking American Spirits, she cuts a handsome
figure for a grandmother about to turn 59.
Mitchell, whose new CD, Travelogue, appears in stores November 19, has
already begun to take a rather curious approach to promoting it. In a
Rolling Stone interview, she hinted that, because of her disgust with the
record business, this may be her last album. And in the opening seconds of
tonights conversation, she makes it official: These are my last two
records, she announces (Travelogue is a double CD,) Im quitting after
this, because the business has made itself so repugnant to me.
Over the next four hours, before we become the last patrons to leave,
Mitchell articulate, insightful and funny repeatedly demonstrates a
willingness to speak her mind: a rare and refreshing quality in a
celebrity. But even as she offers bitter and caustic sentiments about the
music business and sometimes the world at large, she maintains a cheerful
disposition. Were living in the sickest time in centuries havent you
noticed? she rails one minute, then lets out a jolly laugh as she
alternates between sips of cappuccino and pineapple juice.
Mitchell continually brings the subject back to her anger with the
recording biz, beginning with her own longtime label, Reprise, which at the
last minute shuffled Travelogue off to Nonesuch, its artsy (read:
noncommercial) sister label at Warner Music Group. First off, she accuses
Reprise executives of ignorance. Since they have never heard of, for
example, Edgar Allan Poe or Job, they dont get the references in her
lyrics. And they think if they dont, nobody else will, she says.
But their worse sin, in Mitchells view, is avarice. The record business if
the most corrupt one of all, she says. They try not to pay you whenever
possible. Mitchell declines to give specifics. Part of me wants to spill
the beans, but it doesnt seem to be effective, she says. Ive been going
toe-to-toe with the men directly. Most of it Ive said to their faces. Most
of it, they usually agree with me. Some of them screw you for speaking your
mind. I dont see them so much as bad guys individually. Its just that
its become a bean counters business, and they go along with it.
Theyre not looking for talent, she adds. Theyre looking for a look and
a willingness to cooperate. And a woman my age, no matter how well
preserved, no longer has the look. And Ive never had a willingness to
cooperate.
As Mitchell sees it, contemporary musicians are made, not born. As long as
they look good, they can pitch-correct them now they can
interior-decorate their music, she says. The artists dont have to play
anything, - they can cheat, buy songs and put their name on them, so they
can build the illusions that the are creative. And because [the record
companies] made you, they can kiss you off. Me, I dont sell that many
records, but they cant kiss me off so easily.
When shes asked to comment on Madonna, Mitchell at first says, No! I
dont want to talk about it! Then she proceeds to talk about it. She has
knocked the importance of talent out of the arena, she continues. Shes
manufactured. Shes made a lot of money and become the biggest star in the
world by hiring the right people.
Venerated as Mitchell is she surely ranks with Bob Dylan among the great
singer-songwriters of our time the sad fact is that her records have
never sold in huge numbers. She has had only one Top Ten hit: Help me, in
1974. Meanwhile, multitudes of artists who have been inspired and
influenced by her have made much more money from Sting and Prince to
Renie Fleming. Perhaps as a result, Mitchell is somewhat touchy about other
artists covering her songs. She dismisses Judy Collins 1971 hit version of
her Both Sides Now as pretty lightweight. But she is forgiving about
others, including Sinatra, who covered the same song. They forced him to
do it, she says. It wasnt his bag and the arrangement was just a really
bad copy of Judy Collins arrangement.
On the other hand, she was thrilled with two treatments she just happened
to catch while watching television. She calls Robert Downey Jrs rendition
of River on Ally McBeal superb and says, Id rather have it be
emotionally correct than have some great vocal athlete tear it up on it.
Mitchell was also delighted to hear Woodstock warbled by Frances Conroy,
who plays the Fisher family matriarch, Ruth, on Six Feet Under. She and
her daughter are kind of estranged, and the song was used magnificently as
a bridge between generations, Mitchell says. I cried it was profound.
Mitchell herself refuses to do anything to try to become more salable.
What would I do? she says, laughing. Show my tits? Grab my crotch? Get
hair extensions and a choreographer? Its not my world. One of the most
constantly evolving of contemporary recording artists, she has never fit
into any one category, going from folk to rock to jazz and making forays
into world music and classical, all while firmly turning her back on the
mainstream. Certainly, she has given up on videos, having made three at her
own expense that, she says, nobody played. While she didnt mind doing Leno
and Letterman, she may find that, after hearing what she gas to say about
him, Letterman doesnt ask her back: Letterman treats musicians like the
armpit of the [entertainment] industry. He tags you on at the end, never
talks to you while he talks to the dimmest actress. (Lenos lighting and
sound are better, she adds.
It seems to cross Mitchells mind that her remarks might be less than
helpful in promoting a new release. How am I doing? Im dangerously close
to the edge, she says. Protect me from my bad self. Dont make me sound
too dissy.
Mitchell isnt going to have the easiest time selling Travelogue anyway. It
does feature some of her greatest hits, but its not a greatest hits album.
Spanning Mitchells career, it consists of 22 songs, which she recorded
with the 70-piece London Symphony Orchestra, a 13-voice choir and a backing
band that includes Herbie Hancock, Billy Preston and Wayne Shorter.
Its not Joni Mitchell with strings, emphasizes her ex-husband Larry
Klein, who produced the album with Mitchell. Indeed, its easier to say
what Travelogue isnt. According to the artist: Its not jazz, classical,
pop or folk. It belongs to no camp, so no radio station is going to play
it. Which probably accounts for why Reprise, as Mitchell says, dropped it
like a hot potato.
Nonesuch president Robert Hurwitz attempts to put the best spin on the
albums move to its new home at his label.
Reprise asked me if we would release Travelogue because they thought we
might do a better job says Hurwitz, who calls the album great and
astonishing. Recently installed Warner Music creative director Jeff
Ayerhoff, meanwhile, also praises Mitchell, calling her one of the truly
great artists, but adds that Joni has a lot of residual resentments old
baggage, so to speak with the music business in general. She needed a
music company which operates as an art gallery, and the best one of those
is Nonesuch. At this time, Joni needs to move forward with more positiveness.
Mitchell certainly remains positive on the subject of the new album. Im
working outside the box, she says. The participants, like Wayne and
Herbie, know its a revolutionary album. Im dissatisfied with a lot about
it, but at the same time, its a rare treasure. (Joni is about as humble
as Mussolini, her former boyfriend David Crosby once said.)
According to Klein, The attempt here was to reexamine and cast in a whole
new light some of Jonis songs, a lot of which have become icons. Thirty
years after they were first recorded, Klein says, there is something
profoundly beautiful and touching in hearing her sing these songs, with the
weight and wisdom of her voice now. Beyond the emotional gravitas and
pathos 30 years will give a girls voice, there are technical changes. Like
any aging singer, Mitchells range has decreased in her case from the
three octaves with which she was originally blessed. Then there are the
effects of being, in Kleins words, a dedicated smoker since age nine.
Mitchell freely admits, I dont take good care of my voice. In addition
to the smoking, she says, I talk too much. She is sanguine about losing
the clear high tones. She rather end up sounding like a gravel voice Louis
Armstrong than pitch-perfect Streisand. (Im not a fan, she notes.) Win
some, lose some, Mitchell says. At a certain point its all in the
phrasing. Im a better storyteller now.
Travelogue serves as a reminder of Mitchells precociousness as a
songwriter. How could a girl of 21 have written Both Sides Now? Oh,
youd be surprised, she says. Some of these songs I wrote using empathy
and projection, she adds. When I did experience those things, I was
right, so I seemed to know what I was talking about. Somewhat unexpectedly
considering some of her diatribes tonight Mitchell says that she had a
hard time finding her voice for the darker songs on the album, because, for
most of the last year, I was in a really good mood.
In any case, by the age of 21, Mitchell had already lived a full life.
After a hardscrabble childhood in Saskatoon, Canada rendered an invalid
for long stretches by polio she escaped to Calgary, where she enrolled in
art school. In 1965, at 21, she had a daughter out of wedlock after a fling
with a classmate. Broke and with no prospects, Mitchell made the agonizing
decision to put the baby up for adoption, and she kept the child a secret
from everyone, including her parents, for 30 years. Over the decades,
Mitchells yearning to be reunited with her daughter expressed itself in
veiled ways. (In the 1982 release Chinese Cafi, which she re-recorded for
Travelogue, she sings, My childs a stranger/ I bore her but I could not
raise her.) Rumors eventually popped up on the Internet, some of which
reached a girl in Toronto, Kilauren Gibb, who was searching for her birth
mother. In 1995, Gibb, a former model who now has two children of her own,
ages nine and three, flew to Los Angeles to meet her.
Since then, Mitchell has made a few guarded comments in the press about the
reunion, and it supposedly has remained a touchy subject. (Mitchells
publicist warned, Ive seen Joni leave interviews when its brought up.)
Now however, Mitchell brings it up herself. I have a wonderful
relationship with my daughter and my grandchildren, she says, beaming with
happiness before pulling out of her purse photographs from a recent visit
they made to Los Angeles. After the euphoria of the reunion, she admits
that for a year or two, it was difficult, but adds, Now were hummin.
Were more like sisters. Our relationship is beautiful since I didnt
raise her, we dont have the scar tissue thats frequently built up
between mother and daughter.
According to Mitchell, she and her daughter have had only one tussle,
after she gave Gibb a piece of parenting advice that wasnt taken kindly.
Id never do it again, she says. Ill be more delicate. You want my
opinion, ask.
With the discovery of her daughter, Mitchell says she has come full
circle. She observes, Up until then, I didnt have my feet on the ground.
There was a big hole in me. You cant believe the emotional complexity of
what I went through.
Mitchell now makes regular visits to see her offspring in Toronto, making
it her third Canadian home she visits her parents, too, in Saskatoon, and
keeps a rustic retreat for herself in British Columbia, where she
disappears most summers to ripple-watch and paint, which she says is now
her real source of satisfaction.
For the moment, although Mitchell ahs always had a busy love life, she
seems to be enjoying her independence. (In addition to her first marriage
to musician Chuck Mitchell from 1965 to 1967 and then the decade-long union
with Klein, she has had numerous boyfriends, including David Crosby, Graham
Nash, James Taylor, Warren Beatty and Jackson Browne.) But she seems
fulfilled by a relationship with a group she calls my Sunday boys.
Mitchell pulls out more photo snapshots of a fun-looking bunch of buys with
whom she meets every Sunday to play pool. This is not a celebrity group.
One is a plumber who is studying to be a pastry chef, another was formerly
her hairdresser and now takes care of her house the best husband I ever
had, she says.
There is nothing duller to me than a room full of stars, Mitchell says.
There is too much effort, straining, and theyre all exhibitionists. I
need a climate of affection. Youre not going to find a pocket of affection
in a room full of stars. Nevertheless, she makes some exceptions. At a
recent Vanity Fair Oscar party, she got rip-roaring Irish drunk, and had a
fabulous time.
In the coming months, Mitchells personal and professional lives stand to
be exposed more than ever before. Director Allison Anders spent almost a
year filming the making of Travelogue as it was recorded in London and
plans to submit the movie to the Sundance Festival. Meanwhile, the first
full-scale documentary of Mitchells life, Penitent of the Spirit, is being
made by director Susan Lacy, for broadcast in March on PBS American
Masters.
Lacy has shot interviews with numerous key people in the music world who
have had their ups and downs with Mitchell including David Geffen, her
early manager and champion, former best friend and onetime housemate. After
recording her first four albums with Reprise, Mitchell signed up with
Geffens fledgling Asylum Records in 1971, then followed him to the
eponymous label he founded in 1982. Somewhere along the way, it all went
wrong. After some epic screaming matches in Geffens office, Mitchell
bolted back to Reprise in 1994. The two traded accusations for a while
she claimed he withheld royalties, while he countered that she never sold
enough records to earn out her advances but more recently they have
maintained a chilly silence. For his biography of Geffen, The Operator,
Wall Street Journal reporter Tom King valiantly pursued Mitchell for
comment, but she refused. Geffen told King, If I didnt talk to her for
the rest of my life, I wouldnt miss her for a minute.
The news that Lacy has talked to Geffen, presumably with Mitchells
blessing, implies that there has been a defrost. When his name comes up,
Mitchell hesitates before finally saying, David is almost like my mother.
With her, Ill always be a little girl. Geffen once said to me, I know you
better than anyone. That was several lives ago Ive changed a lot. Ive
been several people. David seems to have an inability to see me fresh.
Im fond of David, she continues. Though I dont know why. Yeah, hes
business and Im an artist. Its a strong combative relationship. He was
money motivated, I was art motivated. He took advantage, but he took
advantage of everybody thats the nature of the business. I have no
grudges against him. Any grudges Ive had with him, Ive gone to-to-toe
with him about, and he knows what they are. Geffen declined to comment.
Penitent of the Spirit also promises, of course, to be of interest because
of Mitchells observations of the music world. I got pegged as a folk
musician, but I passed through folk pretty quickly, she observes. I did
it because it was easy, and I could make 15 bucks a night so I could
smoke. Of being labeled a rock singer, she says, I was never really
rocknroll in spirit. I didnt fit in well. I was never much of a druggie.
Rocknroll men were always very combative with me in person though
theyd say nice things about me behind my back. Nowadays, she doesnt hang
out much with her old friends from the rock scene, although she says that
she and Graham Nash have an abiding affection for each other. Shes
fond of Dylan, but admits her conversations with him are a bit cryptic.
As for what she listens to today, the list is short and undeniably
eclectic: Miles David, Billie Holiday, Stravinsky and Roy Rogers,
primarily. She does like some contemporary stuff, notably Norah Jones: I
like her because I dont hear ambition in her voice. I havent heard a girl
singer who wasnt trying way too hard in 20 years. She also enjoys Bjurk,
although more as a personality than as an artist. She has genuine sexual
abandon, Mitchell notes. Whereas a lot of sex symbols are actually frigid.
On the subject of critical assessments, of course, Mitchell is soon to be
in the hot seat again herself. Will critics praise Travelogue for its
innovation? Or will they dismiss it as a rehash? The sad fact is that
Mitchell has not written new music or lyrics in several years thanks, she
says to her repugnance for the business. Is this really the end?
Perhaps not absolutely, she hints. She brings up the case of her late,
great friend Miles Davis. At a certain point he pulled up the drawbridge
and said [Mitchell imitates his raspy whisper], Im not coming out until
they pay me a million dollars, which they finally did. Nobody, in other
words, likes to be undervalued, and Mitchell feels she has been.
But first she has to rouse the muse inside. Maybe if I get away from [the
business], the thing will wake up, she says. I am not fully developed as
an artist. Even more hopefully, she adds that the most unexpected things
can be restored even innocence, which, she says, is the real subject of
Chelsea Morning. Innocence is renewable, through joy and wonder, she says.
Its now close to 11:30 p.m. Mitchell isnt flagging, but the restaurant is
closing. The valet brings around her black Lexus sports car. Dont make me
sound too dissy, she repeats, and after a goodbye kiss, she drives off
into the dark Bel Air night.
