Re: prepare ye - njc rc pc

[sl . m]

I don't believe I have a relationship with god, Colin, because I don't believe there is a god.

I agree very much with your analysis that we are punished BY our sins, not FOR them, and that's very well put. And i would say much more effective and moving than any standard religious teaching. It's karma.

Regarding the difference some people on the list have made between expiation of sin and forgiveness by god of sin, we had a case here recently of a Mennonite woman who had persuaded mothers in the local community to bring their children to her, to be beaten with a stick for their bad behaviour, so that god would be able to forgive them. She was reported and prosecuted eventually. But the mothers spoke up on her behalf in court, saying she was providing a vital service by allowing their children to get to heaven, because if they went unpunished, god would not be able to let them in. I can only shake my head.

Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite darkness ahead.

When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge.

Thank you to the other atheists on the list for stepping forward! ;-)

Mike, you were saying that your atheism doesn't affect your stance on issues like Northern Ireland and the mid-east. It does affect mine, because I don't get drawn into the religious aspect, and both these disputes are based on religious disputes. When the Protestants in Northern Ireland go on their annual marches through the Catholic areas, I just think "morons!" But when they object to being tied to a country in which abortion is illegal, then I respect that fear. So the lack of religious outlook helps me (as I see it) to separate the legitimate grievances from the ones based on superstition and bigotry.

Another example: there's a debate as to who's to blame for the second intifada. People on the Left tend to say it was Sharon because of his provocative visit to the Temple Mount. People on the Right tend to say it was the Palestinians, because although they claim it was a spontaneous uprising against Sharon, in fact it was well planned, and the Israeli government had contacted the PLO well in advance of Sharon's visit to check that it would be okay.

My thinking is: a plague on both their houses. Sharon was stupid to visit what he knew others regarded as a holy site because he regards it as such himself, and he therefore knew the strength of feeling. And the Palestinians were stupid to care! They could have ignored him. They're not automata.

Now hundreds of people are dying because of one old man's visit to an old building.

Sarah



Colin wrote:
in agreement with the above. In a sense we all, athiests, agnostics,
believers have a realtionship with god in one way or another.

I believ we are 'punished' BY our sins not FOR them. what you sow you reap.
An example of what I mean about being punished BY our sins. I knew a
woman who was suffering deeply. The reason for her suffering was her
bigotry. Her daughter she had not seen for years becasue he not only
married out of her faith but also out of her race. This womans desire
was to have her daughter back in the fold but minus her husband and
children. To me that was the beginning of my undersatanding about being
reaping what we saow and being punished by and not for our sins.