[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't believe I have a relationship with god, Colin, because I don't believe there is a god.yes i understand that. however, if there is a God you have a relationship with Her even if in your mind you don't. Your relaionship at the least is one of disbeliefand perhaps one sided. I am not putting this very well.
The second last sentence does not surprise me. People still think it is okay to hit children. People still think that children 'get over' things very quickly, that they forget. Well they don't. Many say 'i was hit as child and it didn't do me any harm' while at the very leasst that was the harm it did them-that they now think it wasn't harmful. Do adults ever stop and think what it would feel like if their boss at work spanked them when they failed?(no smutty kokes here)
I agree very much with your analysis that we are punished BY our sins, not FOR them, and that's very well put. And i would say much more effective and moving than any standard religious teaching. It's karma.
Regarding the difference some people on the list have made between expiation of sin and forgiveness by god of sin, we had a case here recently of a Mennonite woman who had persuaded mothers in the local community to bring their children to her, to be beaten with a stick for their bad behaviour, so that god would be able to forgive them. She was reported and prosecuted eventually. But the mothers spoke up on her behalf in court, saying she was providing a vital service by allowing their children to get to heaven, because if they went unpunished, god would not be able to let them in. I can only shake my head.
Humiliating? Powerless? (tho the powerless feeling would not be the same as the size difference is not there). How does it teach 'goodness' to treat a child with violence? So often the adult is really just acting out their own hidden pain and rage at how they were treated. So much bullshit is said about 'parents doing their best' which is just another excuse. Love and violence, eithet physical or emotional, are just compatible. People who abuse their children do not 'love them really'. 'Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother' has catastrophic effects on so many people's lives.
I have always rather liked the idea that death was THE END. I still do. I did actually believe that for a long time until i had experiences that taught me otherwise. i was not a happy bunny when I was shown that life did not end with physical death. not at all. i was very angry and not a little afraid.
Ironically, it's our intelligence that draws us to religious belief. We can't stand the thought that when we die, we won't exist for all infinity. We can't absorb the non-existence of the 'I'. Yet we are intelligent enough as a species to understand these concepts (infinity, death, I) So we need stories to help us live what might otherwise seem terrifying, empty lives with nothing but infinite darkness ahead.
I didn't think this as child and I agree somewhat with you. however, I guess I view it slightly differently(maybe it isn't different) in that i think it is about becomign aware of choice. Liberating and frightening. Plus as you say becoming aware of self.
When I read the old testament as a child, I understand the Adam/Eve story to represent the idea that knowledge is not just a gift, but is a curse too, and we should not seek it carelessly. And that this life can be regarded as hell, because we have lost the innocence of animals - we know that we will die, we have self-consciousness, and we know that the "I" will someday not be. This terrifies us, so we either live lives of terror (if we think about it) or ignorance (if we don't think about it). And this was the warning of the authors of the old testament 2,000 years ago. Be careful of knowledge.
bw
colin
