Hmmm. A frame thread on the JSP list. It _is_ more fun than talking about
the 1.0 spec that hasn't been released. :)
Your reference doesn't cite one of the most egregious frame problems: what
happens when a form using SSL is framed. On some browsers (IE), there is no
indication that the form is SSL-protected (if, indeed, it is). Twice in the
past couple of weeks I've been asked to type a credit card number into a
framed form. Sorry, lost sale.
But the worst frame abuse I have seen is in Hotmail, which frames any link taken
from mail you receive. Wherever you go, whatever you do, Microsoft wants to
watch.
Bob Foster
Symantec Internet Tools http://www.visualcafe.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: My view on JSP
Author: Rod McChesney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> at Internet
Date: 3/5/99 2:17 PM
The problem is that bookmarking a framed page typically bookmarks the
frameset oage itself, which means that if the real content is in a
middle frame, the visible content is not actually getting bookmarked.
This is very frustrating when you click on the bookmark and get back
the home page instead of the page you intended to save.
> No one would want to bookmark an individual frame.
Maybe not, but they want to bookmark the page they see in front of them,
and the default behavior of frames prevents that.
As for back and forward, their behavior depends on which frame has
focus. So if a middle frame has focus and users click Back, it
is not the same as if the top or bottom frame has the focus and they
click Back. This can also be very confusing.
There are sites designed to work with this behavior --
http://www.zhongwen.com is a great example of a heavily frame-based
site that works very well indeed. But for adding standard navigation
controls at the top or bottom of the page frames are not so good.
I'm a little surprised you haven't run into these issues...they are the
reason most of the heavily used portal-type sites moved away from
frames, as I understand it. See http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html
for some other points; the article dates to 1996 but I don't believe
newer browsers have fixed these problems.
Rod McChesney
Kirkdorffer, Daniel wrote:
>
> Bookmarking isn't an issue as no part of the page has meaning without the
> rest of the page. No one would want to bookmark an individual frame. Like
> anything else the back and forward buttons can be used, but nothing dramatic
> will happen if they are.
>
> Dan
>
> > ----------
> > From: Rod McChesney[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 1:34 PM
> > To: Kirkdorffer, Daniel
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: My view on JSP
> >
> > > This improves the interface in a manner that is
> > > transparent to the user,
> >
> > Except for bookmarking and the behavior of the Back and Forward
> > buttons, that is...have you found some way around those issues?
> >
> > Rod McChesney, Korobra Corporation
> >
> >
> > Kirkdorffer, Daniel wrote:
> > >
> > > Not wanting to start a frames debate, I should point out, like many
> > things,
> > > it all depends on how they are used. I often use frames to create
> > "static"
> > > header or footer sections for a page that sandwich scrollable data
> > display
> > > areas. For example, the footer may contain the action buttons (who
> > wants to
> > > have to scroll to the bottom of a page to access these all the time?).
> > For
> > > example I'm developing a form that is actually comprised of 6 horizontal
> > > zones, each a frame. This improves the interface in a manner that is
> > > transparent to the user, and allows for me to change the content of each
> > > frame without having to change the whole page, which would be a much
> > more
> > > complex and less elegant approach.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Craig R. McClanahan[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Reply To: Craig McClanahan
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 9:31 AM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: My view on JSP
> > > >
> > > > "Kirkdorffer, Daniel" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > [snip]
> > > > > 2) Craig's example below begs for a feature that is lacking right
> > now:
> > > > the
> > > > > ability to "re-target" a page. Craig talks about the common need to
> > > > > conditionally display a page. Well I develop pages that use frames,
> > and
> > > > > often find that the target of my next page might need adjusting
> > > > depending on
> > > > > what happens server side. However a page's target is determined at
> > the
> > > > time
> > > > > a server side call is made, and cannot be adjusted after the fact.
> > I've
> > > > > sent SUN a request for the ability to change target at redirect or
> > > > callpage
> > > > > time. I certainly hope it makes it into JSP 1.0. That's assuming
> > it
> > > > can
> > > > > even be done.
> > > >
> > > > I think your last sentence above is the key ... frames and targets are
> > a
> > > > purely
> > > > *client* side phenomenon. There is nothing in an HTTP request that
> > > > indicates
> > > > what the requestor is going to do with the data, and there's nothing
> > the
> > > > server
> > > > can do to "direct" the response to a particular frame.
> > > >
> > > > So, before it becomes possible to accomplish your goal (determine the
> > > > target at
> > > > the server side), some modifications to the HTTP protocol itself would
> > be
> > > > required. As many designers who have used frames can attest, this
> > issue
> > > > affects static HTML pages just as much as it does dynamic ones. It is
> > > > also one
> > > > of the reasons I have tended to stay away from frames in my own apps.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Craig McClanahan
> > > >
> > > >
> > ==========================================================================
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> > > > body
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> > to
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > ==========================================================================
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> >
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