I wrote everything with a smile... I am very happy. And I am glad you are happy. Emotions don't come through emails very well.
On 12/10/08 6:01 AM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wow. It is very hard for me to realize that you don't get the "Java > is dead" joke. > > I'm not quite sure what your intent here is - maybe you feel the need > to protect your Java turf. > > Listen man, you obviously think you have some deserved box here. > That's cool with me. > > It is interesting that all I said (in defense of Ruby, not a > protagonist position) was that I believed Ruby devers were (in > general) happier than Java devers. Thanks for proving my point. > > Kit > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > >> >> Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un- >> trollish in >> saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to >> support my >> assertion of the un-deadness of Java. >> >> Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use >> Ruby". Wow... >> Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy. >> >> Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for >> you. If >> on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll. >> >> Let me repeat since you are so cool.... >> >> Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of >> troll. Get >> it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll. >> >> Comments below.... >> >> On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Ha. Sucka. >>> >>> I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, >>> mistaken a >>> few assertions for a stance. >> >> I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my >> diatribe, which was on point. >> >>> I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when >>> it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care >>> what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are >>> cool. >> >> I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom. >> >>> The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care >>> who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or >>> even >>> a debate. >> >> No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot >> black. >> >>> >>> Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense >>> to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start >>> dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. >> >> I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at >> least not >> anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was >> more a >> clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). >> Seems I >> only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal >> attacks. >> >> I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :) >> >> "I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be >> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I >> do not >> like Ruby." >> >> Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess >> I am >> not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I >> hate >> Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB. >> >>> >>> Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a >>> webapp. >> >> I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on >> webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are >> you >> developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose >> language, but >> isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like >> I went >> completely off topic. Is it? >> >>> But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most >>> ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. >> >> Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months >> it grew >> by more than the entire Ruby market. >> >>> Though, giving in a >>> second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, >>> I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of >>> technology. >> >> Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I >> say >> ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on >> ridiculous at >> least not on this list. >> >>> >>> Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though >>> I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of >>> themselves. >> >> Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I >> love >> Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling". >> >> It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It >> is not >> like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in >> fact >> dead. >> >> JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and >> happiness in the Ruby community. >> >> I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit this is a personal preference >> mostly >> do to my hatred of Ruby. I also prefer Jython to Jruby mostly >> because I do >> not like the Ruby syntax because I thought it was weak compare to >> Python >> when I was as excited to Python as you now seem to be about Ruby. >> >> Python has also seen some strong growth more so than Ruby not that >> is it a >> contest or anything. >> >> Basically as long as I can make any money doing anything else Ruby >> will >> remain off my list. >> >> >>> >>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: >>> >>>> Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. >>>> >>>> deploy/run/test not a problem.... >>>> >>>> mvn jetty:run >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok... I will bite, but just this once. >>>> >>>> When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications >>>> then I will >>>> drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing >>>> for the >>>> last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger >>>> than the >>>> entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you >>>> can be >>>> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I >>>> do not >>>> like Ruby. >>>> >>>> For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I >>>> can get >>>> paid for something that I love to do. >>>> >>>> I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I >>>> wanted Jython >>>> to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with >>>> Jython (a >>>> book that no one read). >>>> >>>> When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In >>>> terms of >>>> the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and >>>> Python. >>>> In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby >>>> has won >>>> in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with >>>> two left >>>> legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not >>>> won >>>> anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus >>>> impact in >>>> the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael >>>> Phelps. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to >>>>> already >>>>> be built on Spring). >>>> >>>> Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you >>>> would >>>> be all over it. Your point is moot. >>>> >>>>> Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby >>>>> development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure >>>>> what >>>>> your point is. >>>> >>>> The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has >>>> little >>>> influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a >>>> fluke. >>>> Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al >>>> have a >>>> much better track record (although much smaller one). >>>> >>>> >>>>> FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James >>>>> Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the >>>>> least. >>>> >>>> Well known fact and not disputed. Again.... Moot point. SpringSource >>>> could >>>> have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my >>>> point. >>>> Grails is tied to Groovy. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis >>>>> below >>>>> is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would >>>>> assert, >>>>> but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy >>>>> Ruby >>>>> devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality >>>>> comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion >>>>> here - >>>>> but, it is a relative notion. >>>> >>>> Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and >>>> hated it. >>>> What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population >>>> per se. >>>> For example, there are people in the world who are quite content >>>> drinking >>>> their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite >>>> yet. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the >>>>> fence >>>>> here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real >>>>> value - >>>>> developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on >>>>> its >>>>> code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. >>>> >>>> Prompt> mvn jetty:run >>>> >>>> Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. >>>> Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of >>>> development. It will take its place in history next to.... (at this >>>> point I >>>> realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other >>>> group of >>>> people....) >>>> >>>>> Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity >>>>> you'll >>>>> be burdened with pure Java once again. >>>> >>>> This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and >>>> did not >>>> need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead. >>>> >>>> Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no >>>> way dead. >>>> It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do. >>>> >>>> Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight >>>> champion of the world. >>>> >>>>> Open >>>>> sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for >>>>> ensuring its longevity. Only said with a slight grin. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. >>>>>> >>>>>> From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw >>>>>> numbers) >>>>>> than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the >>>>>> way >>>>>> of your >>>>>> "Java is dead" argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby >>>>>> does not >>>>>> seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from >>>>>> zero, >>>>>> percentage of growth sky rockets, but.... Not enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programming&l= >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+ruby&l= >>>>>> >>>>>> I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder >>>>>> why >>>>>> they did >>>>>> not back Jruby in a similar manner. Hmmmm.... >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2 >>>>>>> 00 >>>>>>> 8/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby >>>>>>> 1.9; >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> compatibility is good and getting better all the time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, troll time: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the >>>>>>> benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, >>>>>>> JVM >>>>>>> execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, >>>>>>> etc, >>>>>>> etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was >>>>>>> designed >>>>>>> to "make people happy". Most Rubyists - especially those with >>>>>>> experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static >>>>>>> language >>>>>>> (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke >>>>>>> through. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all >>>>>>> language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby >>>>>>> ecosystem >>>>>>> is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take >>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>> of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of >>>>>>> both >>>>>>> worlds? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Chad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a >>>>>>>> while was out >>>>>>>> performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>> true. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> jug.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
