On 12/06/2014 04:26 PM, Rick Timmis wrote:
STOP, That is Enough !!
This conversation does not belong here, it is devisive, confrontational
and can not be resolved here..
WE - The KDE Community have a responsibility, and duty first and for
most to protect the unity of our community
PLEASE Cease with this thread of conversation.
IF YOU Feel strongly on either side of this argument then please make
you feelings known directly to the organisers of FOSDEM
PLEASE STOP..
Thanks
RIck Timmis
I debated with myself about this message and the thread subject
matter...and decided to speak up about a couple of issues.
The bossy tone of the Rick Timmis message is unusual for KDE. In the
spirit of working together, assuming the best, uninhibited
self-expression, I cannot see any conversation not belonging here if
people want to express their opinions. I want to hear from others and
encourage people not to stifle themselves.
Anyone who doesn't like the subject matter is free to ignore the thread.
I simply do not agree that our primary duty to protect the unity of our
Community. I find that the KDE Code of Conduct and the Manifesto are
clear about how we do things. In particular, the Code of Conduct
addresses inevitable disagreements. It does not say anything about
stopping uncomfortable or contentious conversations.
Re: the thread subject
John's original message laid down a pivot point for the thread. It
raises a hot topic, one that generally is not dealt with effectively, so
that there continue to be oppressive, harassing environments around tech
conferences.
The question for me about FOSDEM is "So what?" KDE people have
interacted with the FOSDEM organizers. Some are dissatisfied, although
not much specific information was shared about why they feel that way.
I've now heard from 4 people who are closely involved with FOSDEM
organizing.
My sense is that Pau is well-qualified to speak to the issues...he has
been closely involved with KDE's participation for several years. As one
of the Desktop DevRoom organizers, he almost certainly has recruited and
selected speakers. His views on the welcoming atmosphere and the
speaker/attendee gender ratio carry weight with me.
Likewise John Layt, who has been one of the primary organizers of the
KDE exhibit space. IMO, he is clearly speaking from a solid position,
although I don't know the basis for his opinions.
I've worked closely over some months with one of the organizers on a
non-KDE open source project, which involves mostly men. She is a savvy
techie, hardworking, insightful, cooperative, collaborative and more. I
emailed her about these issues. Her views on the subject under
discussion mean a lot to me. She doesn't see anything to be alarmed about.
Based on my own work on a Code of Conduct for linuxfestnorthwest.org
[1], the FOSDEM Social Conduct Policy seems to be what the conference
needs. The FOSDEM organizers are aware of potential problems and have a
way to address them.
So what?
* There is not likely to be any KDE policy regarding the policies,
recruiting and selection criteria of other organizations. Any effort in
this direction won't end well. For example, KDE adopts a policy that
encourages people to boycott FOSDEM. Do we then have policies about
other tech conferences? Who decides what is a "proper" code of conduct?
* It is helpful to me to hear various views on conference Codes of
Conduct, people's opinions, what makes people feel oppressed, harassed,
unwanted and unfree. I don't see the kinds of offensive behaviors that
others report, but I'm certain that it happens. There is a long history
of man's inhumanity to man.
* There are efforts [2],[3] to deal with unacceptable conference
behavior. People who feel strongly about the issues can support those
efforts.
* Regarding FOSDEM specifically...24 members of the organizing team are
listed at the FOSDEM website. Presumably someone who advocates stronger
stances on the subjects at hand could join the team.
* Don't participate if a conference has a reputation for being
unfriendly or unwelcoming to women that one finds offensive.
* Get on with it. John's not attending and not bringing equipment that
has been used in the expo space in past years. Who can pick up the slack?
Carl
[1] http://linuxfestnorthwest.org/code-of-conduct. I wrote the original,
lifting as appropriate from similar documents from other organizations.
[2] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
[3] http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq
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On 7 Dec 2014, at 12:08am, Valorie Zimmerman
<valorie.zimmer...@gmail.com <mailto:valorie.zimmer...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Woah. I never thought I would hear such things here.
On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Pau Garcia i Quiles
John,
You couldn't be more wrong.
I have been organizing the Desktops DevRoom for the last 4-5
years (cannot
really remember), so I can speak from reality.
There is no discrimination against women in FOSDEM. It's just
they do not
submit talk proposals. Simple as that. E. g. this year we have
only had one
talk proposal from a woman and I had to chase her! In the very
few cases
where they do submit talks, more often than not when you tell
them "you've
got your slot" the answer will be "oh, I won't be attending, I
need more
time to plan". Well, sorry but everybody is notified of
acceptance/rejection
with exactly the same amount of time (4-6 weeks) due to the
timeframe FOSDEM
manages. If men can come, why can't women? (we do also have some
rejections
from men due to too-late notice but it's less frequent).
There are many reasons women don't submit talk proposals. One of them
is the perceived unfriendly, unwelcoming nature of the conf. I'm not
saying that FOSDEM *is* unfriendly or unwelcoming to women. However,
it certainly has that reputation.
Some women are "pioneers" enough to attend, or even speak. That can
require a great deal of courage, which is not always on-tap. Those who
are experienced speakers of course often come up with a talk on short
notice -- I know of many good female speakers. Why are they not
speaking at FOSDEM? Seriously, if the steering committee wants more
diversity, it should be talking to these experienced speakers and find
out why they choose not to come.
People are overreacting with these CoC's (or lack of). For some
reason, and
it's not discrimination of any kind, women are by far not
interested in
technology and engineering. In the same way they are by far more
interested
in Nursery, Medicine, Psychology, Marketing & Advertising, etc
than men. Is
there a CoC about men for Nursery or Midwife conventions? I
don't think so.
This paragraph here leaves me shocked and speechless. Say what?
Valorie
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:21 AM, John Layt
Hi,
Just a heads-up that I will not be attending FOSDEM next
year and will
not be assisting in any way with preparations for FOSDEM or
providing
any hardware. This is the result of the FOSDEM organisers
refusing to
institute a proper Code of Conduct for attendees or to take
any other
steps in addressing the dreadful gender ratio of speakers on
their
program or attending the conference itself. I have attempted to
discuss these issues with them and found their attitude and
beliefs
completely unacceptable to me. As such I cannot give them
any form of
support, and sadly that means not helping the KDE community
at this
event anymore.
John.
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