Thank you Mark Jones and Brian and Dj and Larry and everyone who
contributed to this discussion. I've forgotten who said what - quoting
helps eliminate that and I use it all the time but this time I've
forgotten in which email who said what, and of course the question of
when is just as unknown as the rest of it. I got in over my head before
I knew it! 'Till now the only lithium I knew about was the stuff the
doctror made me take.
So am sending a blanket "thankyou". I've taken it all in, despite me not
knowing where it came from.
It came from "the net".
****************************
I'm still looking for an answer though to my question as I phrased it to
Larry:
"Taking a 28 lb. lithium battery of this size and weight, what would that
battery be rated at in Ah?"
Asked another way, for you lithium fundis, what would a lithium battery
look
like if rated at the specs of my new AGM? Anything resembling this
garden tractor-sized battery I use? I know,
"garden tractor" is almost a meaningless term since garden tractors have
begun to come with batteries of all different sizes. But earlier there
was somethingf of a standard size and it's that standard size I'm
referring to. It's what my battery box in the KR is designed for. It's
7.75 across and 5
inches and a hair deep. Height doesn't matter, however my box is about
eight inches high on the sides so this new battery sticks a little above
the sides of the battery box. The box doesn't have a lid or cover so
there's no restriction vertically. This new AGM weighs 28 lbs. If
given those same dimensions and weights, what would I have amp-hour wise
if it
were lithium - any lithium . . . the most efficient lithium regardless of
stability or reliability. Perhaps the issues with those unstable but
possibly more powerful lithium compounds that have been mentioned can be
addressed with special care - environmental stability.
I've pretended (On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.) I knew
something about lithium, but all I know about lithium is that batteries
called lithium batteries are much lighter than conventional batteries.
Weak AGM batteries are light too, so lightness without context doesn't
mean much.
Weight of the battery is also a meaningless term (to me) in terms of the
airplane
carrying it. Since I'm the only one in the plane, everything else it
carries are things to make my flight more enjoyable or safe.
This M44 is about twice the size of the typical motorcycle battery -
actually not a fair comparison since this M44 is quite a bit smaller than
two motorcycle batteries (I think that's true anyway . . . I've lost all
of my objectivity
on this issue so don't pay attention to any claims I make on these issues
from now on. I've "lost" it.
Without having direct comparisons of similar models, it's probably
impossible to answer these questions unless someone on the net has a
pretty high security clearance, but guesswork isn't illegal. Guess too
close thoughy and you'll probably have the suits and ties at your door
next morning. Right Jeff?
Anybody brave enough to make some guesses in comparing lithium to this
M44 from Powerstride?
My comments so far about lithium have been based on nothing but
prejudice. It's pathetic I know, but my comments about lithium
batteries, while probably exactly correct, have been based on sheer
ignorance. I haven't got a clue what's going on in the lithium world.
I'm a trogolyte, clinging to my AGM/VRLA technology as if it were THE
ANSWER.
I hate freezing. I don't want to be messing with battery problems when
my fingers are numb. Anything that does a good job of keeping me in a
warm cockpit instead of having anything to do with Dzus fasteners in an
ice storm can be Product of the Year, in my book.
The charger below I bought for the new KR battery was sold locally by
Powerstride at the Amazon price. Easy company to work with.
Looking at the burned out batteries at the back of this Cavalier hangar
reminds me I need to tell you about Schumacher battery
chargers/maintainers. Doug has been using the same one for many years.
It's a 1.5 AMP "intelligent" charger but in reality it's not smart at
all. I recently bought a new car/motorhome/motorcycle Schumacher charger
on sale at Sears. It has a setting for "Powersports" sized batteries and
another switch to go between AGM and flooded-cell. It has an automatic
"maintenance mode" it goes into once it's brought the battery up to some
predetermined (by Schumacher) level. In the case of my
motorhome/motorcycle/car battery, in maintenance mode it pumps 15.5 volts
into the battery day after day, week after week, month after . . . you
get the idea. If the plane is left any length of time at all with this
monster attached to the battery terminals it will kill the battery with
heat and has done so with those Concorde and other batteries on Doug's
back table. It would have done so with the new Gill we just bought
however before starting work on the mount bushings, tires and other
things, I pulled the battery out and set it on carpet at the side of the
hangar and then attached Doug's 1.5 Amp Schumacher maintainer after
topping off the individual cells with distilled water. Within two days I
noticed a light spray deposit around each of the caps, droplets upon the
top surface of the battery around the loosened caps. I think the caps
have built-in pressure relief-lids but I wasn't sure so just loosened the
lids and sat them back down on top of the holes. The holes were closed,
kind of, but still the boiling electrolyte had forced spray through the
cracks and formed visible droplet rings around each hole. I disconnected
this thing and won't be using it for anything. It's programmed to force
fifteen plus volts into whatever battery it's hooked to . . . constantly.
My big(ger) Schumacher, which also has selective modes like Doug's - -
letting one choose between AGM vs STD and Powersports vs STD . . . and
which
also automatically goes into a maintenance mode once batteries have
attained a certain level of charge (set by Schumacher) . . . this one
pumps 15.5 volts
into whatever battery it is hooked up to. I found some reviews on Amazon
which claimed this charger does that so even though there were only a few
making that claim among the many hundreds of happy customers - (most of
whom would assume a multi-meter has something to do with making
crackers). What does that tell us about using Amazon reviews for
decision making? It can be done, and should be done I'd say, but not
superficially. Superficially, this really destructive demonic little
innocuous-looking charger is given just a few small stars short of a full
five stars. It's within several points of winning the White House!
Chargers are something I know a little bit about. Give me something I
know really nothing about, were I to shop Amazon using just the reviews
for decision making, I would soon be without funds.
Since I know how to monitor what a charger is putting out, I did that
with these two Schumacher chargers when in maintainer mode. Both of them
overcharged the batteries significantly, and would have caused early
failure. In maintenance mode, too much energy was converted to heat
which broke down structures and affected chemical composition of
electrolyte and other components - probably causing destructive forces to
occur first along boundries . . . such as the thin absorbent mats which
contain the electrolyte. Just kind of imagining this process . . . it's
not hard to imagine the destructive effects of heat.
Going to look for myself, with my new car/motorhome/motorcycle charger
called a "Diehard 6 Amp" at Sears, built by Schumacher and usually has
the Schumacher name easily seen. In the Sears pictures it looks like
it's painted differently. Maybe they even put a new Sears type of name
on it. Diehard is an old name for them. Anything they stick it on is
going to sell pretty well. It's a good charger, but deadly as a
maintainer.
As I understand the process, the excess heat causes pressure to form
which, since it's a sealed battery, can only be released through
emergency vents designed just for this purpose - relieving pressure when
the internal temperatures and pressures are being exceeded. If it didn't
release, it would explode like those lithiums did on the new Dreamliners
a couple times now. Hopefully they've improved their pressure relief
valves in those 787 batteries. I'd bet the specs on those batteries that
burned on the 787's would put my new AGM to shame. I'd imagine they
would have been state of the art. It would be interesting to find out
more about them. I'm wondering if there's a site that would go into that
question - there's probably several of them. How did we live without the
internet.
********************
I wondered aloud today why Doug never noticed the phenomenon going on
with his batteries and this maintainer thing which really didn't seem to
do a
very good job of keeping batteries healthy.
Someone nearby answered that some people just want a place to go to get
out of the house.
******************
Regarding these Schumacher chargers, if they're used as a primitive, dumb
charger and disconnected once the battery is charged then I'd give my new
Sears charger five stars. It's in the maintenance mode these things kill
batteries. It gets zero or minus stars as a maintainer and really you
don't want one of these around the house since somebody who doesn't know
any better will eventually stick it on a battery and leave it - it says
right on it in green glowing colors that it is doing "Maintanance".
Somebody will eventrually destroy an otherwise good battery with it if
you leave it lying around.
I've got two of these Schumachers at hand and they both do the same
thing. Doug's
maintainer does it at 15 volts and mine does it at 15.5. The Harbor
Freight maintainer never took the battery above 13.1. My new
charger/maintainer (link below) never takes the battery above 13.2. This
new device has a monthly exercise routine it does that is brief and
designed to keep the battery from becoming too complacent. Batteries
have a certain primitive intelligence and one of the things they can
learn is that prior behavior will bring predictable rewards. This is
mostly good, on the battery's part, to feel secure and not start acting
flaky as if it doesn't know where it's next dose of distilled water is
coming from. It's healthier for the battery however, long term, to not
get so complacent. Keep it on its toes, keep it ready for armaggedon,
keep it awake and aware. That's what this new charger maintainer does,
once a month (I think - need to read the manual on this part again).
What it says it does on a monthly basis is draw the battery
down (don't know how far) and builds the charge back up to 13.2 again.
It will also, upon command, perform a de-sulfating procedure. I've only
read about it, haven't observed it.
The main thing that's different
between this new maintainer I've bought to replace my Harbor Freight
maintainer, and the HF maintainer, is that the new one will charge the
battery in multiple stages. The HF maintainer would just slowly
build it up from wherever it was (it needed to at least be at 11). It
could take it as long as two-three days to get back up to 13.1 if I had
drawn it down badly with some night work.
I liked it because it didn't get very involved with the plane's
electrical system. Nor did it bother anything to just take it off at any
time and go flying, even if voltage was less than fully charged. I think
the
new device, this Pro-Logix PL2140, will do a better job of intelligent
maintenance of the battery. Or maybe it will be just the same as the
Harbor Freight one, in the end. Time will tell. I just realized the
Wal-Mart Schumacher maintainer at $45 is only four dollars less than what
I paid for this amazing Pro-Logix PL2140. I'm sorry Juno breaks up the
links. Just Google Pro-Logix PL2140.
Doug's is a small recangular box says SPEED
CHARGE
in the center of the unit. Itr has Schumacher's name on it along with
the 1.5 Amp info and it also calls itself a "Maintainer"..
The one I bought at Sears is also a Schumacher. I think they're in
cahoots with the battery industry. It pumps 15.5 volts into whatever
battery it's connected to while in maintenance mode. The link below is
hopeless I know. Please Google "Diehard 6 Amp" at Sears and you'll get
to it. That's the new one I've bought to replace a really old one I had
around the house. I found a lot to like about this new one since I've
had it. I still do like it but didn't realize until I started revisiting
battery information lately in replacing my KR battery, that I learned I
was trusting the "maintance mode" in these "maintainers" far more than I
should have been. They're not trustworthy. They'll ruin batteries.
Doug's got a whole collection of ruined batteries. Learning not to trust
these all-American middle-of-the-road everybody's got one Schumacher
battery chargers takes a conscious effort to study the facts. The facts
are in the leads of multi-meters.
I wish they at least had a mode that would let me set them to turn
themselves off once the battery reaches full capacity. I don't think any
of these chargers have that ability, including my new Pro-Logix. You'd
think that would be a basic feature, but I've never had one that would do
it.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Diehard-6A-Automotive-Battery-Charger/16550307?
action=product_interest&action_type=title&item_id=16550307&placement_id=i
rs-8-b1&strategy=PWVUB&visitor_id=A9Bz4H20Lo5WELeQ5Y6Hms&category=&client
_guid=cbff22a9-a9f7-4a6e-895b-159a71bc4394&customer_id_enc=&config_id=8&p
arent_item_id=15140193&parent_anchor_item_id=15140193&guid=52497dea-00f3-
4b1a-a9c4-338b7d88438f&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&beacon_version=1.0.1&fi
ndingMethod=p13n
Finally, for about the same price as that Wal-Mart thing that Doug has, I
bought at the same place as I bought the new KR battery (ML44) the
charger/maintainer below. It's brand is Pro-Logix. Have also seen it
spelled Prologix. Number is PL2410. The link should work but if you
Google "Pro-Logix PL2410" you'll get to it. Powerstride sold it to me
for the price it's listed at on Amazon, $49 and a few cents. Juno will
ruin the link but here it is again anyway. It's a link to Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/SOLAR-PL2140-PRO-LOGIX-Battery-Maintainer/dp/B00U3Z
BU2E
I think it's the only product I've ever seen on Amazon that didn't have
any stars except five stars. That's not why I bought it however. The
fellow at Powerstride recommended it and I decided to take his advice
since once I tested my Schumacher (I initially thought the Schumacher
charger with the maintenance mode would do the job for my new KR battery
- but once I put a multi-meter on it while "maintaining" I saw the few
reviewers on Amazon who mentioned this characteristic were absolutely
correct. This thing is a disaster as a maintainer. So I gave the
Powerstride fellow the option of selling me his at the Amazon price,
taking into consideration the tax I'd have to pay here in CA and not on
Amazon. He did that and it even came out a little cheaper than Amazon.
I like Powerstride. The first battery I got from them, while it cost a
fortune at $185, turned out to be an excellent battery and I could not
have found anything better.
Doug's 1.5 Amp Schumacher Maintainer is called an XM1-5 Maintainer and
costs $44.95 at Wal-Mart. The link will surely choke Juno but if you
Google "XM1-5 Schumacher" you'll recognize it. You may have killed off a
few batteries yourself with one of these. They look small and harmless.
The fact it says 1.5 amps on the front gives the impression it's barely
up to the job of dealing with such heavy duty things such as 12 volts,
although the words "Speed Charge" should serve as a warning. Lead acid
batteries as a breed don't like the be fast charged. These malicious
chargers have been around a long, long time. Doug's looks like its from
the 1960's it's so covered with grime. If you've got one of these
Schumachers (the rest of their line probably has the same maintenance
mode circuitry) check out what you've got going into the battery in
maintenance mode. Check and make sure your electrolyte isn't boiling. A
little boiling is good (stirs up the sedement and redistributes the
chemicals), but constant boiling just ruins the battery in short order.
I'd avoid Schumachers and anything thar looks like them - they trade
names but hardware with whatever faults it has, stay the same. They kill
batteries. I'm going to use nothing but the Pro-Logix units for
maintenance on vehicles from now on, until something even better comes
along. . Boiling the electrolyte while in maintenance mode is not what
we want to do for long battery life. That's why the HF maintainer did so
well . . . never took it past 13.1.
That's what I currently know about battery charger maintenance modes and
the units/brands I'm familiar with. I go on too long and repeat things I
know but without knowing it some of us are ruining perfectly good
batteries so if you get annoyed enough with my electrical histronics
maybe you'll go put a voltmetrer on your battery charger while in
maintrenance mode and perhaps treat yourself to a surprise (hope not).
Mike
KSEE
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
