http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/8/we_need_to_make_a_ruckus
"We Need to Make a Ruckus": Robert Reich Hails Occupy for Exposing Concentration of Wealth and Power <http://www.democracynow.org/images/story/08/21508/original/button-occupy-2. jpg> Guest: Robert <http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/robert_reich> Reich, professor of public policy at the University of California at Berkeley, and former secretary of labor in the Clinton administration. Time Magazine named him one of the 10 most effective cabinet secretaries of the last century. He has written 13 books, including Aftershock: The Next Economy and Americas Future. His latest is an e-book, Beyond Outrage: What Has Gone Wrong with Our Economy and Our Democracy, and How to Fix Them. AMY GOODMAN: And so, if President Obama were not re-elected, and it was a Republican in office, it was President Romney, do you think it would be any more extreme? ROBERT REICH: Oh, yes. AMY GOODMAN: In what way? ROBERT REICH: Are you kidding? Well, I mean, look at AMY GOODMAN: Because the people on the outside, who you say got demobilized when President Obama was elected, and perhaps when President Clinton was elected, would be far more mobilized, because they would not expect to have a friend in the White House. ROBERT REICH: Well, but the cost of a Romney White House, in terms of everything we believe. I mean, he has embraced Paul Ryans budget. He says its a marvelous budget, which means that we not only get a larger military and we not only get huge cuts in domestic discretionary, including education and Medicare, Medicaid, every safety net, every public investment, but we also at the same time get huge tax cuts for the very rich. We put the economy and our society on a track back to pre-New Deal. And think of the Supreme Court openings that are going to occur. I mean, Iyou know, the most elderly judgesjustices who are there have been appointedwere appointed by Democrats. Now, I think the cost of a Romney administration is so huge, even if it would generate more public outrage, that I would say, lets all get behind Obama for a second term; lets make sure, to the extent possible, we have a Democratic Congress; but lets understand that thats just the beginning of our task. Weve got to make them move in a progressive direction. Its just like 1936, when Franklin D. Roosevelt was running for re-election and somebody said to him, "Mr. President, if youre re-elected, I want you to do this and this and this and this." And he said, "Maam, I want to do all these things, but if I am re-elected, you must make me do them." You see, democracyyou know this. I mean, this is what Democracy Now! is all about. Democracy is a practice. Its a living form of ongoing citizen engagement. And we cannot allow ourselves to be lulled into either complacency or cynicism. Cynicism is the worst form of cop out, because AMY GOODMAN: You were on the inside as secretary of labor. What did you feel was the most effective way for people on the outside to have an effect? As you said, you walked through the streets on the day that welfare reform is going to be signed, and you look and you see that no one is around. What makes the difference? And talk of today, about Occupy, as well. ROBERT REICH: Well, yeah, I think, number one, it is very important for people to visibly demonstrate. Now, its hard to break through in the media, but visible demonstrations with a lot of people do help. They shift the medias attention. The Occupy movements put inequality on the front page. The Occupy movement succeeded in changing the tenor and the shape of debate in this country about what was happening and allowed the President of the United States to say that the defining issue of the campaign is fairness, who gets what. The Occupy campaignwithout the Occupy campaign, none of that would happen. Number two AMY GOODMAN: Were you surprised by it? ROBERT REICH: I was surprised that in a relatively short timeyou know, Ive been around for a whilecivil rights, Vietnam, anti-Vietnam, so on. I was surprised that in a matter of months the Occupy movement could claim so much attention and so effectively shape the debate around the concentration of wealth and power in this country. And that, to me, is an indication of how much can be accomplished. But thats not all. I mean, we have to go on. Weve got to also get involved in electoral politics. In relatively safe Democratic districts, its important to put up progressives, so that the center of gravity doesnt keep on moving to the right in this country. Its important to get behind a plank of specific ideas, like resurrecting Glass-Steagall, like breaking up the big banks, like making sure that taxes are increased on the very wealthy and the earned income tax credit, which is basically a wage subsidy for the working poor, be expanded, and so on. Get behind six or seven major ideas that we all think are critically important to the future and push them, and push them dramatically. Get big money out of politics. You know, Im the chairman, the national chairman, of Common Cause, an old organization. Its been doing this work for years. But if we dont get big money out of politics, everything else we want to do is hopeless. And that is a fundamental, fundamental, basic goal, reversing Citizens United. All of these things can be done. AMY GOODMAN: You talk about President Obama too much appeasing the Republicans, but isnt it also the people who will fund his campaign, expected to raise more than a billion dollars? ROBERT REICH: Yes, and weve got to have campaign finance reform and lift the lid on the amount of campaign finance, so no president or no would-be president is at a disadvantage in accepting public financing. AMY GOODMAN: Are you concerned about the police crackdown on the Occupy movement, a level of militarization of the police in this country that we have rarely seen before? ROBERT REICH: Yeah, and its ironic that, under the First Amendment, we now have a Supreme Court that says corporations are people and money is speech, and yet when the people really do mobilize under their First Amendment rights to free assembly, the police, in city after city, crack down and dont allow the people to be heard. I mean, if corporations are people and if money is speech, then it becomes even more critical that we expand and enrich the definition of First Amendmentof the First Amendment to allow people to express themselves. AMY GOODMAN: It would be interesting to see this militarized police force deal with corporations as people. ROBERT REICH: Yes. I mean, I willIve said before, Ill believe that corporations are people when Texas executes a corporation. I mean, once we go down the track of treating corporations as people and money as speech, there is really no end to the distorting effects of big money and corporate money in politics. Thats why its not just Citizens United. Its also several Supreme Court precedents that have got to be changedif necessary, by a constitutional amendment. AMY GOODMAN: A constitutional amendment that would...? ROBERT REICH: That would say, effectively, corporations are not people and money is not speech. And it is perfectly appropriate for Congress to regulate, especially in a majorin a presidential campaign, to regulate and restrict big money. AMY GOODMAN: Finally, the issue of austerity and whats happening abroad and how it could affect whats happening at home. In the headlines today, reading about German Chancellor Angela Merkel rejecting calls by the newly elected Socialist French president, François Hollande, to renegotiate the European fiscal pact thats led to widespread austerity measures across continentacross the continent. Whats happening in France? Whats happening in Greece? ROBERT REICH: Austerity doesnt work. You know, there are two doctrines perpetrated by the right, in the United States and in Europe. One is supply-side, trickle-down economics. We know that doesnt work. They keep on trying to convince us it does. Weve seen, under Reagan, under George W. Bush, that when the taxes are cut on the rich and on corporations, nothing trickles down. The other, first cousin, is austerity economics. When you have high unemployment and a lot of underutilized capacity, the idea is you cut public budgets. Thats insane, because that leads to a shrinking of the entire economy, when the real problem is, to the extent that youre worried about fiscal discipline, the ratio of debt to the size of the economy overall. If you shrink the economy, that ratio becomes worse and worse. Thats an austerity trap. Thats what happened to Spain. Its whats happening even to Britain. Its whats happening to Europe as a whole. Angela Merkel is absolutely wrong. You need jobs and growth first, before you embrace austerity. Now, were going to come to exactly the same decision point in January, because weve got the sequestration cuts coming up. If nothing is done between now and then, we are going to be forced to embrace our own version of austerity economics at a time when there is still going to be high unemployment and still a lot of underutilized capacity here in the United States. We have got to understand, as Europe has got to understand, as I think François Hollande is going to push Germany to understand, that jobs and growth have to come first, before so-called fiscal austerity discipline. AMY GOODMAN: So, finally, you think Occupy is the answer? ROBERT REICH: I think Occupy is certainly part of the answer. You know, I would say we need to make a ruckus in this country. We also need to get very, very much more clever about politics. We need to get involved in electoral politics. We need towherever we see it, Amy, we need to fight cynicism. We need to understand that this is a long haul. You know, take civil rights, womens suffrage, anything that weve got accomplished that expands the franchise and expands opportunity in this country, it did not happen in six months. It didnt happen in four years. It happened over 20 years. Im not saying we should be patient, but weve got to understand that mobilizing and changing the allocation of power in society is a serious and long-term and very difficult process. Its necessary for our children and our grandchildren, but it is not going to happen overnight. AMY GOODMAN: Robert Reich, I want to thank you very much for being with us, professor of public policy at University of California, Berkeley, former secretary of labor in the Clinton administration. Time Magazine named him one of the 10 most effective cabinet secretaries of the last century. He has written many books, among them, Aftershock: The Next Economy and Americas Future. His latest is an e-book called Beyond Outrage: What Has Gone Wrong with Our Economy and Our Democracy, and How to Fix [Them]. This is Democracy Now! When we come back, were going to talk about Guantánamo and the military tribunals that are taking place right now. Why arent American civilian courts good enough? 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