Really sorry David .... to have made only my SECOND POST on this subject!!!!! Are we not allowed (hopefully) reasoned debate anymore? Am I infact breaking list rules by countering your incredibly well thought out argument? I'm all for telling people making 20 plus posts a day on the same subject to knock it on the head, but TWO POSTS?????????????
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Not >>> the Bates bit, that's been done to death. Wise. >>> Why do you HATE (Pretty strong word) him? As a person? Just >>> because he's a >>> Laaarnderner? Well you know him no better than I do for a >>> start off. >> >> This is true but your selective memory is forgetting that he beat up a >> taxi >> driver and broke a sleeping team-mates jaw - doesn't make him a person I >> want to know never mind have running my football team. >> > Not selective memory at all Paul, were you there? Do you know the > circumstances? I'm not condoning violence at all but feel some are lead by > the media too much. What he did was, unquestionably, wrong but do you know > him well enough to decide that makes him a bad person? Have you ever been > involved in a fight? Ever smacked someone and run? If you have, I don't > suspect it makes you someone I should hate. If you haven't? Well done, > you're a better man than me. > >>> Nasty >>> little 'Cockerknee' shite on the pitch, make no mistake, but pretty >>> fcuking good with it, very much ala Batts. >> >> Not a bit like Batts imho > > Well We'll beg to differ. They both did that role that every team needs, > harried people, put their foot in and ran around controlling that key area > in the centre of midfield. I don't think he did it as well as Batts, but > thats the job he did and 'imho' isn't exactly a counter point is it? >> >>> But as a manager? >>> Well, he did >>> well at Millwall early days and did indeed take an underacheiving >>> Championship side to the FA Cup final, with no money but >>> admittedly a very >>> lucky draw. >> >> As you say - a lucky draw. > > But he did it. He also got them to within a whisker of the Premiership and > into Europe. This is Millwall we're talking about BTW, avergae crowd below > 10,000, not a Wolves or Forest with big support and better finances. > Perspective Paul, come on. > >> >>> Then he went to Swindon and did a fantastic job in a short >>> space of time, starting them off a season which they ended, again >>> admittedly for the majority of the season not under his >>> control, gaining >>> automatic promotion. >> >> I think the real achievement was by Paul Sturrock however if you feel >> that >> he did that much in the 3 months he was there then surely in 9 months he >> should work wonders - but no, you now have a different benchmark >> > So by the same argument, the early days of David O'Leary were all down to > David O'Leary were they? OR was it, as I Suspect, that O'Leary lived off > the good foundations built by George Graham for the first 2 yers and then > screwed it up by letting Brian Kidd come in and undo it all. He built that > team, set them off on the right track and Sturrock (Not taking anything > away from him) carried it on and finished the job. > >>> Then he came to a club in a downward spiral (Good album from >>> NIN BTW!) and >>> no, he didn't miraculously turn it around. But I honestly >>> think, from what >>> I saw last season, he made us a better team. He made us fitter, more >>> cohesive and more attack minded, but our luck truly ran out >>> last season, >>> teams scraped unlikely vistories at exactly the wrong time >>> for us (Hull >>> pulled victories from out of several hats last year for instance). But >>> ultimately it wasn't good enough, in two thirds of a season. >> >> Correct IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH - therefore he should be sacked - he >> tried, >> he >> had plenty of time to stop a squad which had reached the play off final >> from >> getting relegated but he failed. That then is 'Thank You and Goodbye' >> time. >> > First, lets get one thing straight. We were awful ALL last season. MOST > football watchers said on here (including me) that after he took over, we > were better as a team, fitter, more organised and at least had a go at > teams, instead of the incipid crap Blackwell ended up serving us (And yes, > just to prove I've not got a selective memory, I did originally argue to > give Blackwell a chance but changed as soon as the final whistle blew in > the Palace game two seasons ago when he proved he'd gone as far as he > could). > >> >>> So, shenanigans aside, we are where we are. Currently 15 points adrift >>> from everyone else without a game being played. Is that his fault? NO >>> (Unreservedly no BTW, he has NOTHING to do with us being -15 >>> points right >>> now and if you argue he is, I think you're misguided). Did >>> Wise 'take us >>> down' well for the fact he was in charge the moment we were actually >>> relegated, yes. >> >> He was in charge for two thirds of a season before we were relegated, it >> took him four months to realise that Healy was a striker ffs! > > OK forget management skills here. You originally argued that Bates AND > Wise were responsible for being -15pts. That is, unreservedly, bullshit. > How is Wise responsible AT ALL, for a penalty imposed due to an > administrative porcess? How? He isn't, he cannot be. End of. > >> >>> But that's looking at it through purely black >>> and white - >>> right or wrong eyes. >> >> Sorry Tim but that's how it works - you can play all the fancy dan >> football, >> be as fit as you like but if you don't win then there really was no >> point >> in >> making the effort. > Now your showing weaknesses Paul. Not a lot in this world is purely black > or white. There are so many factors involved in a lot of things, football > being one of the best examples, that to say there is right and there is > wrong is naive. Also, I do wonder if in fact you are from the Victorian > age if you argue against Fancy Dan football ;-) (Are we allowed jokes?) > >> >> >>> Wise is a player from the modern game >>> and, as such, >>> understands the needs of the modern footballer. He's strong minded and >>> determined. >> >> He's a thug and a bully. > As I have said, so was Vinnie and I don't hear anyone condeming him on > here. > >> >>> Something that is not always a plus and that he >>> needs to learn >>> to channel, but dreaming aside I think he IS capable of doing >>> a job for us >>> and moving us upwards rather than down. >> >> Tim - you are dreaming if you think Wise can take us anywhere but down. >> > Well, proof will be in the pudding won't it. I'll happily make a pact > right here with you then and it's this. PROVIDING (And I think this is a > fairly fair proviso) the 15 point penalty is at least lowered to single > figures, then I will bet you a night in The Grove, with the loser buying > all the beers, for a damn good chinwag about all things footy that we are > top half of the table by Christmas. If the penalty is lifted altogether > I'll go for top 7. > >>> I am perfectly prepared to give him the obligatory 3 months >>> and then make >>> a decision. >> >> He's had 3 months - He's had 6 months - He's heading for 12 months. > > 3 of which have been a close season where he has been unable to do > anything managerial in reality!!!! > >> >> >>> I said the exact same of Blackwell and personally think it >>> only fair of ANY manager. If, (Off the pitch rumblings aside) >>> he MANAGES >>> to turn out a team that is commited, plays half decent >>> football and gives >>> us a fighting chance of something positive this season, why >>> not get behind >>> him and SUPPORT him? >> >> Because he fcuked up last season and thus should fall on his sword - end >> of. > Him alone, not the players, the board, the previous encumbent. Just him? > Thats your argument is it? > >> >>> Why condemn him off hand without looking >>> at the whole >>> picture and judging him by what we watch on a Saturday >>> afternoon? It's a >>> blinkered, slightly misguided approach, don't you think? >> >> The whole picture is we got relegated last season - that is the managers >> fault, no one elses. > > Nothing whatsoever to do with the players then? > >> >> Paul >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list >> administrators >> accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. >> Leedslist mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist >> Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators > accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. > Leedslist mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist > Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators > accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. > Leedslist mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist > Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org > _______________________________________________ the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. 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