It's going to be excellent when we have some actual football, good or bad to talk about. Is Paul going to go through the season Bates and Wise bashing, even if we do well from the start? Dont respond paul as I have devised a Cundell filter finally
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Leslie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [LU] Time to get back to the footy... > Really sorry David .... to have made only my SECOND POST on this > subject!!!!! Are we not allowed (hopefully) reasoned debate anymore? Am I > infact breaking list rules by countering your incredibly well thought out > argument? I'm all for telling people making 20 plus posts a day on the > same subject to knock it on the head, but TWO POSTS????????????? > > >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ >> ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZ ZZZZZ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Leslie >> Sent: 09 August 2007 09:47 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [LU] Time to get back to the footy... >> >>> >>>> OK Paul, let's dissect, as you like doing, for a moment YOUR >>>> comments. Not >>>> the Bates bit, that's been done to death. Wise. >>>> Why do you HATE (Pretty strong word) him? As a person? Just >>>> because he's a >>>> Laaarnderner? Well you know him no better than I do for a >>>> start off. >>> >>> This is true but your selective memory is forgetting that he beat up a >>> taxi >>> driver and broke a sleeping team-mates jaw - doesn't make him a person I >>> want to know never mind have running my football team. >>> >> Not selective memory at all Paul, were you there? Do you know the >> circumstances? I'm not condoning violence at all but feel some are lead >> by >> the media too much. What he did was, unquestionably, wrong but do you >> know >> him well enough to decide that makes him a bad person? Have you ever been >> involved in a fight? Ever smacked someone and run? If you have, I don't >> suspect it makes you someone I should hate. If you haven't? Well done, >> you're a better man than me. >> >>>> Nasty >>>> little 'Cockerknee' shite on the pitch, make no mistake, but pretty >>>> fcuking good with it, very much ala Batts. >>> >>> Not a bit like Batts imho >> >> Well We'll beg to differ. They both did that role that every team needs, >> harried people, put their foot in and ran around controlling that key >> area >> in the centre of midfield. I don't think he did it as well as Batts, but >> thats the job he did and 'imho' isn't exactly a counter point is it? >>> >>>> But as a manager? >>>> Well, he did >>>> well at Millwall early days and did indeed take an underacheiving >>>> Championship side to the FA Cup final, with no money but >>>> admittedly a very >>>> lucky draw. >>> >>> As you say - a lucky draw. >> >> But he did it. He also got them to within a whisker of the Premiership >> and >> into Europe. This is Millwall we're talking about BTW, avergae crowd >> below >> 10,000, not a Wolves or Forest with big support and better finances. >> Perspective Paul, come on. >> >>> >>>> Then he went to Swindon and did a fantastic job in a short >>>> space of time, starting them off a season which they ended, again >>>> admittedly for the majority of the season not under his >>>> control, gaining >>>> automatic promotion. >>> >>> I think the real achievement was by Paul Sturrock however if you feel >>> that >>> he did that much in the 3 months he was there then surely in 9 months he >>> should work wonders - but no, you now have a different benchmark >>> >> So by the same argument, the early days of David O'Leary were all down to >> David O'Leary were they? OR was it, as I Suspect, that O'Leary lived off >> the good foundations built by George Graham for the first 2 yers and then >> screwed it up by letting Brian Kidd come in and undo it all. He built >> that >> team, set them off on the right track and Sturrock (Not taking anything >> away from him) carried it on and finished the job. >> >>>> Then he came to a club in a downward spiral (Good album from >>>> NIN BTW!) and >>>> no, he didn't miraculously turn it around. But I honestly >>>> think, from what >>>> I saw last season, he made us a better team. He made us fitter, more >>>> cohesive and more attack minded, but our luck truly ran out >>>> last season, >>>> teams scraped unlikely vistories at exactly the wrong time >>>> for us (Hull >>>> pulled victories from out of several hats last year for instance). But >>>> ultimately it wasn't good enough, in two thirds of a season. >>> >>> Correct IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH - therefore he should be sacked - he >>> tried, >>> he >>> had plenty of time to stop a squad which had reached the play off final >>> from >>> getting relegated but he failed. That then is 'Thank You and Goodbye' >>> time. >>> >> First, lets get one thing straight. We were awful ALL last season. MOST >> football watchers said on here (including me) that after he took over, we >> were better as a team, fitter, more organised and at least had a go at >> teams, instead of the incipid crap Blackwell ended up serving us (And >> yes, >> just to prove I've not got a selective memory, I did originally argue to >> give Blackwell a chance but changed as soon as the final whistle blew in >> the Palace game two seasons ago when he proved he'd gone as far as he >> could). >> >>> >>>> So, shenanigans aside, we are where we are. Currently 15 points adrift >>>> from everyone else without a game being played. Is that his fault? NO >>>> (Unreservedly no BTW, he has NOTHING to do with us being -15 >>>> points right >>>> now and if you argue he is, I think you're misguided). Did >>>> Wise 'take us >>>> down' well for the fact he was in charge the moment we were actually >>>> relegated, yes. >>> >>> He was in charge for two thirds of a season before we were relegated, it >>> took him four months to realise that Healy was a striker ffs! >> >> OK forget management skills here. You originally argued that Bates AND >> Wise were responsible for being -15pts. That is, unreservedly, bullshit. >> How is Wise responsible AT ALL, for a penalty imposed due to an >> administrative porcess? How? He isn't, he cannot be. End of. >> >>> >>>> But that's looking at it through purely black >>>> and white - >>>> right or wrong eyes. >>> >>> Sorry Tim but that's how it works - you can play all the fancy dan >>> football, >>> be as fit as you like but if you don't win then there really was no >>> point >>> in >>> making the effort. >> Now your showing weaknesses Paul. Not a lot in this world is purely black >> or white. There are so many factors involved in a lot of things, football >> being one of the best examples, that to say there is right and there is >> wrong is naive. Also, I do wonder if in fact you are from the Victorian >> age if you argue against Fancy Dan football ;-) (Are we allowed jokes?) >> >>> >>> >>>> Wise is a player from the modern game >>>> and, as such, >>>> understands the needs of the modern footballer. He's strong minded and >>>> determined. >>> >>> He's a thug and a bully. >> As I have said, so was Vinnie and I don't hear anyone condeming him on >> here. >> >>> >>>> Something that is not always a plus and that he >>>> needs to learn >>>> to channel, but dreaming aside I think he IS capable of doing >>>> a job for us >>>> and moving us upwards rather than down. >>> >>> Tim - you are dreaming if you think Wise can take us anywhere but down. >>> >> Well, proof will be in the pudding won't it. I'll happily make a pact >> right here with you then and it's this. PROVIDING (And I think this is a >> fairly fair proviso) the 15 point penalty is at least lowered to single >> figures, then I will bet you a night in The Grove, with the loser buying >> all the beers, for a damn good chinwag about all things footy that we are >> top half of the table by Christmas. If the penalty is lifted altogether >> I'll go for top 7. >> >>>> I am perfectly prepared to give him the obligatory 3 months >>>> and then make >>>> a decision. >>> >>> He's had 3 months - He's had 6 months - He's heading for 12 months. >> >> 3 of which have been a close season where he has been unable to do >> anything managerial in reality!!!! >> >>> >>> >>>> I said the exact same of Blackwell and personally think it >>>> only fair of ANY manager. If, (Off the pitch rumblings aside) >>>> he MANAGES >>>> to turn out a team that is commited, plays half decent >>>> football and gives >>>> us a fighting chance of something positive this season, why >>>> not get behind >>>> him and SUPPORT him? >>> >>> Because he fcuked up last season and thus should fall on his sword - end >>> of. >> Him alone, not the players, the board, the previous encumbent. Just him? >> Thats your argument is it? >> >>> >>>> Why condemn him off hand without looking >>>> at the whole >>>> picture and judging him by what we watch on a Saturday >>>> afternoon? It's a >>>> blinkered, slightly misguided approach, don't you think? >>> >>> The whole picture is we got relegated last season - that is the managers >>> fault, no one elses. >> >> Nothing whatsoever to do with the players then? >> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list >>> administrators >>> accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. >>> Leedslist mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist >>> Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators >> accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. >> Leedslist mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist >> Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators >> accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. >> Leedslist mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist >> Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators > accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. > Leedslist mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.zetnet.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/leedslist > Join The Leeds United Supporters Trust at www.lufctrust.org _______________________________________________ the Leeds List is an unmoderated mailing list and the list administrators accept no liability for the personal views and opinions of contributors. 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