It is a curious fact that Trotskyists call a vast range of people and
movements "Stalinists" (everyone from Pol Pot to the wettest Eurocommunist)
but are very tight and restrictive when it comes to using the label
"fascist".
We will leave others to ponder why this is. We have better things to do.
DHKC London Information Bureau
-----------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [L-I] Re: DHKC London Information Bureau - Open Letter to
European Left
> I think what you write below really outlines the different definitions of
> "fascism" used by Marxist-Leninists(Stalinists) and Trotskyists.
>
> A suppose a Trotskyist postion would be that fascism is based on a mass
> movement of the petty-bourgoisie and the lumpen-proletariat in imperialist
> nations, wheras Communists tend to apply the term more broadly to
encompass
> regimes that Trotskyists may differently label "Bonapartist" and even
> societies that have a facade of bourgois democracy such as Turkey. I think
> the description of Turkey as Fascist is a correct one. Certainly the
actions
> of the state in suppressing any forms of working-class expression are
those
> of fascism. Also the states use of extreme nationalism to tie the masses
to
> it. I suppose the point here is that all "democratic" states will show
their
> fascist nature once faced with revolution. (For example, the fascist role
of
> the British state in occupied Ireland were death-squads, mass internment
and
> military occupation were the norm)
>
> Really though, since I am not from Turkey I will defer to my Turkish and
> Kurdish comrades on the issue since it is they who have the first hand
> knowledge of the situation, and I think that most of the Turkish Left does
> agree on this.
>
> On the term "social-fascist" and the SPD. I think it was an accurate
> description. The SPD had itself used both fascist death-squads and the
> state-forces to crush the communists and the working-class. In that sense,
> to point out that the "Socialists" were no better than "fascists" was fair
> enough. Of course Hitler, having never been in power, was an unknown
> quantity at that time. But the suppresion of the revolutionary movement by
> the SPD had certainly not been qualitivly much different than that of
> Mussolini's fascists in Italy.
>
> regards,
> James.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A.Wosni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> > While it is understandable that you are carried away by your emotions,
> Cde.
> > Tait, this is not a sufficient basis for an intervention in a debate on
> > (Marxist or other) theory. You ought not criticize cde. Owen for what he
> does
> > not mention unless it distorts the point he's trying to make.
> > There are a few things which seem to me to be definite truth: 1. every
> > state is an oppressive organization, 2. history has had regimes more
> bloody than
> > the Turkish ones and which were not in a scientific sence fascist (among
> them
> > Stalin's counterrevolutionary dictatorship), 3. calling everything that
> you
> > righfully reject 'facist' might be a good way to express your horror,
but
> why
> > do you need the 'fascist' form of imperialism (capitalism in the epoch
of
> decay)
> > to really be against it? The incriminate use of the term 'fascist' seems
> to me
> > to be a left over from one of the two zigzags of the Stalinist epoch,
> either the
> > ultraleft '3rd period' when even the social democrates were called
> fascists, or
> > the rightwing 'popular front'-period when the fight against fascism
> > was instrumentalized to build a large front together with 'democratic'
> > imperialism (the colonial peoples of the time by the way knew better
about
> > the'democratic' character of their own allegedly 'antifascist'
> imperialists).
> > The unscientific use of the term 'fascism' thus either serves to mask
> > ultraleftist sectarianism or a right opportunistic betrayal of the
working
> class
> > to the 'liberal' bourgeoisie.
> > A. Holberg
> >
> > red-rebel schrieb:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Owen Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Reply to secr (MG!), at [EMAIL PROTECTED], who wrote on the
> > > 19/12/2000
> > > > 5:23:
> > > >
> > > > > I think the explanation might be that it's felt hopeless to do
> anything
> > > > > about such ruthless fascist regime.
> > > >
> > > > The Turkish regime is certainly reactionary, yes. But by any real
> Marxist
> > > > definition, it is not fascist (has a movement representing a ruined
> > > > petty-bourgeoisie and all those classes above the proletariat seized
> power
> > > > and usurped all elements of working class democracy in society, are
we
> > > > looking at the rule of finance capital, etc...?) This is using
> "fascist"
> > > as
> > > > a moralistic characterisation rather than a scientific term. We have
> not
> > > > really seen fascism in the post-1945 epoch.
> > > >
> > > > No matter how brutal the terror of a reactionary regime is, one
> should
> > > not
> > > > simply use fascist as a handy swearword or propaganda term. This
only
> > > serves
> > > > to prevent us from making an accurate class analysis of that regime;
> in
> > > > other words, it deceives, and that can be a dangerous thing. Not
only
> > > that,
> > > > it strips "fascism" of its scientific meaning and renders it
useless.
> It
> > > is
> > > > a term which should be used only after very careful analysis.
> > > >
> > > > I realise a far-Right, extreme-nationalist party is a member of the
> > > Turkish
> > > > regime; however this is not fascist per se, no matter how
reactionary
> it
> > > > genuinely is. Potentially it can serve as a core for a future
fascist
> > > > movement, but the conditions for fascism are not present in Turkey
in
> the
> > > > year 2000. Indeed a similar party, the Radical Party of Votislav
> Sesijl,
> > > was
> > > > part of the old Serbian coalition, but that did not make the old
> Belgrade
> > > > regime fascist in character either. Likewise, I would certainly not
> > > describe
> > > > the Freedom Party of Haider in Austria as fascist either; a
Rightwing
> > > > bourgeois-nationalist party whose leadership is not really to the
> Right of
> > > > the present British Conservative leadership of William Hague, to be
> > > honest.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Owen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this response from OJ sums up what the DHKC said about the
euro
> left
> > > rather succinctly. Not a word from Owen about the communists being
> > > massacred - just plenty of psuedo-intellectual verbiage about the
> "correct
> > > Marxist definition" of fascism. For the "brit-left" politics is just a
> word
> > > game. In Turkey it is life and death. But if we look over Owens
comments
> > > from the past on "stalinists" ("worse than Hitler", "murderers of the
> > > workers" etc, etc, ad nauseum) I'm sure we'll understand his lack of
> > > concern. Maybe the slaughter of "counter-revolutionary stalinists" at
> the
> > > hands of "bourgois democratic" cops is a good thing?
> > >
> > > "The conditions for fascism are not present in Turkey in the year
2000"!
> > > Open your eyes Owen.
> > >
> > > James Tait.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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