While I don't expect you to learn anything from any Marxist argument I will
still take the pains to answer your diatribes hoping that someone less
religiously minded than you will benifit. My answers in []:
red-rebel schrieb:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A.Wosni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > While Martin obviously has a interpretation different from the Trotzkyist
> one of
> > what Stalinist means, you say that you are proud to be a Stalinist. May I
> ask
> > you if this implies that you are proud to belong to a current which has
> murdered
> > probably more communists (many of them devoted Stalinists) than Hitler?
> > A. Holberg
> >
>
> I'm proud to be called a Stalinist because it differentiates me from
> middle-class trot liberals. Too flippant? Well, do you really expect a
> serious response to such a baited question?
> Stalinists killed more communists than Hitler!? Come off it. So you're
> objectivly saying that Hitler was better for communism than Stalin? Such is
> the logic of that assertion. I think perhaps you are a little confused.
> Stalinists killed more NAZIS than anyone else. (And meanwhile the
> trotskyites called for "fraternisation" and printed newspapers for those
> 'confused' SS men to read and see the error of their ways!)
[what I'm saying is that Stalin was at least as bad for communism as Hitler.
Lenin once said that communism can only be destroyed by 'communists'. This is
certainly what Stalinism managed to do. While Hitler destroyed communists and
their organizations but because of his own anti-working class crimes more or
less left the ideological legacy living it was Stalinisms crimes against the
international working class movement which has left us now with an international
working class largely cynical about Marxism and communism. As to Trotzkyists
calling for fraternization you probably refer to the French Trotzkyists. They
did not call on the SS but on the German soldiers, which is a big difference. By
the way it does not look good for a Stalinist like you to criticize them for
doing so when it is known that the Stalinized KPD tried to do exactly the same
and on a much larger level with the rank and file of the NSDAP before 1933. They
didn't have much success here, but I don't think that it was generally< wrong to
try and do so, though the KPD might sometimes have appeased nationa<list ideas
too much in the process. As to Stalin killing so many Nazis (after he had
fraternized with them /Hitler-Stalin-pact)you ought to know that he led WWII as
a 'patriotic' war sgsinst the invading Germans and only secondarily against an
ideological enemy.]
> You'd rather continue writing idiocies like that than offer solidarity to,
> for example, the Turkish comrades being slaughtered in the jails? But then,
> they are just proud Stalinists too and therefore worse than Hitler, yes?
[rubbish! I don't know how old you are, but I guess rather young. In this case
let me tell you that I have demonstrated together with Turkish/Kurdish
Stalinists against the regime in their country probably more often than you will
for the rest of your life. I make a certain difference between the people and
their official ideology. I know that many of the TC-Stalinists are sincere and
devoted revolutionists. I support their resistance against all forms of
oppression by the bourgeois state, but this doesn't mean that I have to support
their political line of how to topple the bourgeois state and what to build
instead. Let me give you another example for this difference between
'military/tactical' support and political support - Palestine: I say "The whole
of Palestine is occupüied territory and zionist Israel has to be smashed".
However if a Zionist is attacked by someone because he is a Jew and not because
of his being a Zionist I would support him. This doesn't make a pro-Zionist out
of me but an Anti-Antisemite.]
> Maybe you should call for the Turkish comrades to 'fraternise' with the cops
> and soldiers who are burning them alive and perhaps whatever faction of the
> 4th International you belong to can get together with Owen and publish a
> newspaper for the cops, soldiers and prison guards ("workers in uniform") to
> read in their lunchbreaks between shifts of torturing Communists (sorry,
> Stalinists worse than Hitler)
[for my understanding there is no 4th International now. It has been destroyed
politically shortly after the war by right wing oipportunism and a policy of
appeasemrent both woth the Stalinists and the Sociasl Democrates, which is to
say that I'm not a member of any of the "4th Int.". For the rest the crap you
are writing doesn't merrit an answer]
>
> Just who do you think the real enemy is A.?
[easy to answer: the real enemy is the international bourgeoisie and in second
line all the forces who under the name of socialism/communism help to keep it
alive, Stalinism in particular since it has been the major force to dirty the
immage of communism. By the way, don't you feel that it is not by chance that
almost the whole Stalinist camp has finally gone over to social democracy and
not back to Leninism when the crises of their statecapitalist model of society
became all too obvious?]
> I should also add that your reply on the question of fascism shows up just
> how detached from practical reality your ideological ineptitude really is.
> Your attempts to draw a distinction between fascist death-squads and
> "democratic" death-squads for example.
[no distiction like this has been made by me. I was writing about the character
of the state, not of this or that particular person or force within the state]
(And as for claiming that Turkey cannot be fascist because it has "independent"
trade-unions!) Also the usual corrupt lies which attempt to lay the blame for
fascism at the door of Communism (ie attacking the CPs for being too critical of
social-democracy on the one hand and then for being too concilliatory on the
other - for 'ideologists' such as yourself, Communists are damned whichever way
we turn - just the fact of our "Stalinism" automatically 'proves' that we are
always in the wrong. Indeed, trotskyism brandishes the label "Stalinist"
precisely in order to avoid having to provide reasoned argument. So for
trotskyites, Gorbachev or the 'eurocommunists' are just as "stalinist" (and
therefore politically identical) as the DHKP-C or Che Guevara, or Enver
Hoxha or Daniel Ortega, or Sendero Luminoso and PDS. Clearly ridiculous.)
[you would certainly agree that both fascism and liberal democracy are forms of
bourgeois rule. So why is it so difficult to understand that Gorbachev and
Presidente Guzman are just extreme forms of a basically identical political
outlook, which we define as a form of bureaucratic nationalist rule over the
working class on the basis of statified capital. I know that this is just a
claim, but I think that I'd be able to prove my case if I'd took the time and
space. Gorbachev of course is the representative of Stalinism in its final phase
of decay when it finishes its natural way towards social democracy.Che Guevara's
case is bit more complicated, of course. Don't forget that he was the most open
to Trotzkyism of all the Cuban leaders.]
> I will forward seperately an article on the subject of the KPD, SPD and
> NSDAP which was published by Red Action, themselves a highly anti-stalinist
> (indeed anti-Leninist) organisation, who at least are prepared to approach
> such issues with a refreshing sense of historical honesty yet unseen from
> within the ranks of trotskyism.
>
> J.
>
> (Maybe I should add, for the sake of clarity, that as far as I am aware the
> nobody in the 'current' I belong to (the Socialist Labour Party) has ever
> killed anyone communist, trotskyist or otherwise.)
[I did not say you did, but Stalin did. Stalin also would probably not have done
so if he was the leader of a tiny party like the SLP in today Britain. It's not
primarily a problem of a bad character but of counterrevolution within a
very poor and just from the beginning deformed workers state (remember that
Lenin regarded the Russiasn dictatorship of the proletariat as a deformed one
with an overwhelming buraucracy)] A.Holberg
> Report on DHKP 'sacrifice action' follows.
> =============================
> (Forwarding from BBC World Service website:)
>
> Police in Turkey say two people have died and at least five others have been
> injured in a suicide bomb attack on a police building in the country's
> capital, Istanbul.
> The blast took place on the fifth floor of the regional police headquarters
> in the district of Sisli.
> The bomber and a police officer are reported to have died and four more
> police officers are said to have been injured.
> The blast caused severe damage to buildings and nearby cars.
>
> Suspected prison link
>
> Police have identified the bomber as 23-year-old Gultekin Koc and say he is
> a member of the outlawed left-wing Revolutionary People's Liberation
> Party-Front (DHKP-C).
> Istanbul police chief Kazim Abanoz told reporters Mr Koc had wrapped his
> body with explosives and gained entry to the building by claiming to work
> there.
> Turkey accuses the DHKP-C of being behind a recent hunger strike in prisons
> across the country.
> Mr Abanoz said: "[This is] revenge. What else can a suicide bombing be?"
> Thirty inmates and two soldiers died in December when security forces raided
> jails to end the hunger strikes, which were started in protest at the
> introduction of new, higher security prisons.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leninist-International mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To change your options or unsubscribe go to:
> http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
_______________________________________________
Leninist-International mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To change your options or unsubscribe go to:
http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
