Good evening Mark!
Mark Crispin wrote Frank Reichert...
> Surely, you don't mean to imply that liberals suffer from a deficit of
> patience? Perish the thought!
No. Actually the contrary to that. Perhaps the best way to describe
what they have found a way to master is the "art of compromise". They
are by instinct, "statists". Whatever finds a way to advance that
cause, is temporarily acceptable. Problem is, a lot of so-called
conservatives and neo-conservatives such as the G.W. Bush regime are
all sucked into that same pattern.
As such, this has become a lose-lose situation, at least insofar as
reality checks are sometimes made to determine which side is really
winning.
As I wrote last time:
> > Many in the US would likely be better served by just
> > waiting four more years to elect a liberal-socialist Democrat as
> > President here.
To which, you replied:
> Many of us will seek to prevent that from happening 4 years from now, 8
> years from now,...
And, so? What's really the point, or the result?
The point I made last night, or tried to make, is:
> > The acrimony wouldn't end entirely. Conservative, and
> > particularly libertarian-minded ones, can't agree very much on
> > just about anything either.
Then, you replied:
> Oh, I wouldn't go that far. There's a fair amount that can be agreed to
> on the "mind your own business" and "leave me alone" platforms.
> Even among evangelicals, a majority will keep peaceful relations with
> their neighbors ("he still thinks that I'm doomed to eternal damnation,
> but he fixed my lawnmower anyway"). True, they are not going to understand
> why the Boy Scouts can't take public money and continue to discriminate on
> religious grounds (even with the example of the Girl Scouts not doing so).
Now, here I believe, we have a critical problem, if not a
misunderstanding of the way things really work. I have never in my
lifetime found a way to bridge tremendous gaps between libertarians
and/or "conservatives". This is exactly why we keep losing, and will
continue to lose, because we are faced by a determined force of those
who know they are winning.
If you ask a couple of simple questions, such as:
1. Would you choose today to be in bondage to others, or entirely
free to make your own choice, which choice would you make?
2. Do you believe you have a right to force your neighbour to accept
your own choices for his own behaviour, lifestyle, or morality?
Most people, if asked such questions would most likely answer (1) My
free choices are my own business; and, (2) My neighbour's choices are
non of my business.
I wrote:
> > on
> > social issues at least, want the government out of our lives so
> > we can run our own lives as we choose.
Well then, God save us! You wrote:
> Indeed. These are the people that created the majority that elected Bush.
This is probably the last bunch of authoritarians I want trying to run
my own life, family or private property!
> To the extent that people sign on to "mind your own business", there will
> not be a problem. When people do not sign on to that, there will be
> conflict. That will always be the case.
Well, the current neo-conservative/fascist bent in this current regime
is totally just as unacceptable to me as if the socialists had pulled
this all off in electing John Kerry! The question has to be asked,
"Is there any real difference?" Maybe. But overall, not what any of
us could ever really accept, and so the next question is: Why should
we vote for it? Indeed. Why?
In short: We lose. We keep losing. But it's not losing as much as if
we had if we had chosen to vote for someone who was not so reckless
with our civil liberties and individual rights. At any rate, we still
lose by voting for the status quo no matter whether that falls on the
Democrats or the Republicans.
> Nevertheless, people who want to live under an elected dictatorship have
> the option of moving north of the 49th parallel. The point is that some
> of us do *not* want an elected dictatorship, and have no other place to go
> if the US falls.
I understand that very well. So what do YOU want to do to change the
status quo of becoming a fascist dictatorship in America today versus
a socialist dictatorship under an opposite regime in power. You seem
to be suggesting that under normal conditions, people would vote for
opting out of slavery! I agree, that ought to be the case. It isn't
the case.
I previously wrote:
> > If you watched Mel Gibson's movie, THE PATRIOT, one of his best
> > quotes is at the beginning of the movie, when he addressed the
> > colonial legislature on a vote to go to war with England. In a
> > question over the power of the English monarchy, Gibson said, "A
> > legislature can trample over a man's rights just as easily as a
> > king can."
And, you replied:
> That is, indeed, the situation in Canada. Fortunately, unlike Canada, the
> US has a series of check and balances which prevents such an outcome.
You've got to be kidding, right? Checks and balances. We have in
place a politically appointed activist court. A court that serves
itself and its legislative agenda by creating laws, and rights that
never existed in statute law, or constitutional law. We have perhaps,
the most prostitute judicial system on the face of the earth (perhaps
a slight exaggeration)... but not by much!
I concluded:
> > Would you really like to be governed by a legislature composed of
> > a heavy proportion of the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell,
> > and others of such ilk?
And, you replied:
> I never said that. Be careful about putting words into someone else's
> mouth.
Honestly, I'm not trying to do that, and that was never my intention
here. I am suggesting however that what we probably have in place
today insofar as our Executive Branch in government, speaks largely
from demanding moral conformity at the expense of individual choice.
The Patriot Act today is probably the most dangerous piece of
legislation that has been enacted in this nation in the last 200
years! I don't know how you care to deal with this, but at least it
seems to me, that you have to, since you identified yourself as a
"libertarian".
Let me know where you come down on some of this because I believe this
conversation is one of the better ones that I have seen on this group
for quite some time.
Kindest regards,
Frank
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