On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 09:38:17 -0700, Aaron Wolf wrote: > https://www.rollapp.com/ — complete SaaSS to the extreme (see > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html ). > > They aren't illegal, and they do mention "Open Source" at least (which > isn't absolutely legally required), but they avoid even linking to the > websites of the software they host.
Keep in mind that the AGPL's extra requirement only applies if the software is _modified_.[0] But this is still an important discussion. Perhaps it even highlights an issue with the "modified" condition. From glancing briefly at this site, it seems that it allows remotely executing and rendering software for display on the client (within a web browser). So this would be a similar concept to SSH'ing into a server and running software either on the command line or via X11 forwarding: no software has been distributed to the user that is interacting with it. So while the concept in itself isn't anything new---it's just rendered in a web browser rather than, say, by an X11 client---I still agree with you on the more general issue. We can expect this type of trend to continue, but not only because of the SaaSS push and "thin"/"dumb" clients: it's also an easy way to circumvent the most important provisions of the GPL. The user still wouldn't be able to run their changes to the software on the original service, but that's a property of SaaSS; she could still run it on her own hardware. (I know you know all of this; I'm just trying to avoid unnecessary replies from others on these points.) So just saying "SaaSS is bad, don't use it" isn't the solution: many users will choose to use it, just as many users choose to use proprietary operating systems; we don't forsake those users and tell them "you've already scarified your freedom; there is nothing we can do for you". On the contrary, we support those platforms if at all possible so that those users can enjoy those fundamental freedoms in whatever environment they decide is acceptable to them. All-or-nothing is not realistic and works against our cause. I'm not saying that is being done here. But to further Aaron's point, we're at risk of moving in that direction. > The only legitimate reason for GPL (without the A) today is to preserve > compatibility with existing GPL projects. All new projects, and all > projects that can feasibly switch without forking problems need to move > to AGPL. It has *nothing* to do with whether or not the software is > *designed* to be run on a server, *all* software should be AGPL. I do see a couple issues that immediately stand out that would need to be heavily considered: The first is license compatibility with _other_ free software licenses, such as the Apache License v2. The second is how adopting the AGPL too aggressively too soon might work against our goals by having more people avoid the software more aggressively than they avoid the GPL today. With that said, for the latter case, we have two major categories to consider: 1. Standalone software; and 2. Share libraries. For standalone software, as a _user_, it would seem that the only way you'd have reason to avoid AGPL'd software is to exploit precisely this situation. So that works toward our goals, not against them. But we have license compatibility issues for AGPL'd libraries and for standalones using other libraries with which the AGPL may not be compatible. We have a similar issue today with GPLv2-only and GPLv3 software, and often times over another strong philosophical reason: Tivoization. And just as the GPLv3 adapted to a new reality, so too should it to the issue of SaaSS. Does a step to encourage AGPL provisions present a similar philosophical challenge to Tivoization, or is it greater? That's not to say that the AGPL's provisions will always be appropriate, just as the GPL's are sometimes not: the LGPL is used in certain cases for legitimate reasons (such as glibc), and linking exceptions are used with the GPL (such as for the GCC Runtime Library Exception). [0]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html -- Mike Gerwitz Free Software Hacker | GNU Maintainer http://mikegerwitz.com FSF Member #5804 | GPG Key ID: 0x8EE30EAB
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