Like what features are you missing in other clients?
What do you mean Proprietary Software? Fluffy Chat is AGPL-3. Did you
even search the clients I mentioned?
Element is Apache-2. This is all Free Software.
The encryption not being as good in Matrix it is known. And they are
looking to upgrade it. See my previous message.
But aside from that I see Matrix more as a IRC and Discord and Slack
alternative. For groups.
And what does it mean that Synapse is the most used now? Coversation is
the most used Android Client.
Does that mean that XMPP is not an open protocol and is only for
Conversations?
If you want to use Element they are open to changing the captca:
[1]https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/3606
If you don't want to like me there is fluffy chat which AGPL-3 and not
Catpca.
If you are talking about Desktop there are 6 clients to use one of them
from Gnome.
Plus even three terminal ones and one Emacs client.
I have mentioned before the features:
First a lot of clients which XMPP lacks.
Second ease of use which XMPP lacks.
Third stickers, threads, communities and other modern features that
people expect for groups from Discord and the likes.
Or Voice rooms even.
Keep in mind that all of these and more are planned for Matrix. If you
go through their github issues.
MSavoritias
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 09:08, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)
<n...@os-k.eu> wrote:
Le 3 aot 2020 23:45:11 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias
<[2]marinus.savorit...@disroot.org> a crit :
Okay First of all I am going to say once more that I am not talking
about Riot, Element or anything like that. I am talking about the
protocol. Please read my messages.
But you're telling us about XMPP on mobile. Have you a functionnal
alternative to Conversations on Android that has the same features ?
Third what I know is that Olm is based on Signal encryption. If you
say that Singnal encryption is not that good then I am afraid our
conversation ends here because it is clear you don't know what you
are talking about. That is not to say OMEMO is not good.
OMEMO is based on Signal encryption, known as Axolotl, and is audited
by experts (see [3]https://conversations.im/omemo/). Then Olm and
Megolm appeared, and Megolm is the most used in order to allow people
to retrieve messages when changing their devices (so no forward
secrecy).
Also Element is functional. Like Conversations. Just like other
clients like Fluffy Chat and Dillo.
Proprietary software is antifeature.
Also I am not talking about Synapse. There are other servers to
choose from. And the higher usage comes at the cost of features
which XMPP lacks. Personally I find that acceptable.
But Synapse is the most used.
What do you mean about advocating Google? The youtube widget?
Recatpcha, is a best example.
This is not about beauty or anything like that. It is about
functionality and modern features that I have first hand experienced
users caring about.
Which features are you talking about ???
MSavoritias On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 01:01, Adrien Bourmault (neox on
Freenode) <[4]n...@os-k.eu> wrote:
Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is
not more modern than XMPP. In computer science, be young is not
always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it
was evolutive and reliable. The XSF point of view is different from
the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the
tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be
useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. We
shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix
protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they
want to be popular.
If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in >
capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can
be > overcomed.
I can't understand what do you mean. Conversations is developed by a
very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this
app that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be
shown ? Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as
functional as Conversations (since non free software usage or
advocacy is for me an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers")
and XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more
reliable and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to
overconsumption I observed). It is clear that you like Matrix very
well, but your arguments are wrong and subjective.
In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development
outside > of Conversations.
I can't agree. ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and
devs of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and
are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides
additionnal choices for people. On mobile, there is only one
functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free
software, especially Google one.
I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it
finds some use there.
Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care
about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's
modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than
Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was
an anti-feature lol). Do you think the FSF should advocate for that?
With all the problems that Vector has, it would be a treason for
people who trust the FSF. I can understand you like Element because
it has stickers and it is beautiful. This is the same with other
software that are unethical but beautiful. Free software is about
freedom, not popularity Librement, Le 1 aot 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00,
Denver Gingerich <[5]den...@ossguy.com
<[6]mailto:den...@ossguy.com>> a crit :
On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote:
The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have
good clients for Mobile,
You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has
"bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations,
so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in
some way.
doesn't have modern features
The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm
not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a
protocol they want to promote. Are there other "modern features"
that XMPP is missing?
or even a coherent standard.
As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP. If you
want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or
Conversations.
So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can
attract new contributors that may want modern features.
Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks!
Denver <[7]https://jmp.chat/>
Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is
not more modern than XMPP. In computer science, be young is not
always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it
was evolutive and reliable. The XSF point of view is different from
the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the
tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be
useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. We
shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix
protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they
want to be popular. > If Conversations are the benchmark for how
much behind XMPP is in > capabilities that a modern user wants, then
I don't know if it can be > overcomed. I can't understand what do
you mean. Conversations is developed by a very small team,
practically one person, and you conclude that this app that evolves
permanently has already shown all that could be shown ? Excuse me,
but at this time there is no client for Matrix as functional as
Conversations (since non free software usage or advocacy is for me
an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server
softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable and
powerful than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I
observed). It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your
arguments are wrong and subjective. > In mobile at least there
doesn't seem to be enough development outside > of Conversations. I
can't agree. ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and
devs of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and
are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides
additionnal choices for people. On mobile, there is only one
functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free
software, especially Google one. > I know it is pretty popular with
privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. Have you
ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about
privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's modern
encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm
(because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an
anti-feature lol). Do you think the FSF should advocate for that?
With all the problems that Vector has, it would be a treason for
people who trust the FSF. I can understand you like Element because
it has stickers and it is beautiful. This is the same with other
software that are unethical but beautiful. Free software is about
freedom, not popularity Librement, Le 1 aot 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00,
Denver Gingerich <[8]den...@ossguy.com
<[9]mailto:den...@ossguy.com>> a crit : On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at
07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: The second point I was trying
to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good clients for Mobile, You
mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has
"bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations,
so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in
some way. doesn't have modern features The only feature you have
explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm not sure why this is an
important feature for FSF to have in a protocol they want to
promote. Are there other "modern features" that XMPP is missing? or
even a coherent standard. As we've mentioned, there are coherent
standards for XMPP. If you want a client that supports the important
standards, use Gajim or Conversations. So by that point I was
advocating to have a Matrix server so we can attract new
contributors that may want modern features. Per above, please tell
us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks! Denver
[1]<[10]https://jmp.chat/> References 1. <[11]https://jmp.chat/>
_______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss
mailing list [12]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
<[13]mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org>
<[14]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
uss>
_______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss
mailing list [15]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
[16]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
References
1. https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/3606
2. mailto:marinus.savorit...@disroot.org
3. https://conversations.im/omemo/
4. mailto:n...@os-k.eu
5. mailto:den...@ossguy.com
6. mailto:den...@ossguy.com
7. https://jmp.chat/
8. mailto:den...@ossguy.com
9. mailto:den...@ossguy.com
10. https://jmp.chat/
11. https://jmp.chat/
12. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
13. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
14. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
15. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
16. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
_______________________________________________
libreplanet-discuss mailing list
libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
