hi, "Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? "
yes, you are right. that was the point of the first part of my letter.. trying to show how i see Debs letter, fully emotionally charged as was my first part. like a mirror. to show how i see her letter, you understand what i mean (english is not my native, some thoughts are harder to express, sorry)? my main point tough is, that division is making us weak and confused. between was just a try to "open" her eyes in the flawed logic of emotions as a basis for constructive dialog. regards g On 15. 04. 21 21:38, Danny Spitzberg wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[1]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue against your own principle. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ... ever, ever, ever much? I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my eyes completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is harassed and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink) We should be able to work on free software without that gate. i can not see the connection between "promote computer user freedom" e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS present to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom? You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. could it be he listened but didn't react the way you wanted? It's completely false to draw a parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software supporters. would need to see some examples finally of this rudeness you keep referring to. try finding ones that weren't provoked so as not to waste more time with a straw man. (down below you used open hardware, is the perfect example where one could scream: not open, free/libre - after so many years in the movement you still spread propaganda mixing free and open) RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle for freedom though. the freedom you are fighting for here is known in my world as "political correctness". see, its political. FSF is not a political platform, find another platform for (in my opinion highjacked, using grassroots and perverting it for some agenda unbeknown to me) movement of political correctness. i stand strongly on my political views, but see, they are not important for FSF, i mean: for the part where they intersect they are the same, where they don't intersect i won't bother pushing my flat earth theory on FSF... was a parable, am actually still a globe-er :), ohoho and by the way, planet is not a correct term, since etimologically it means plane not globe, so lets all start calling the planet globet) And there are many aspects of even computer freedom that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware, here you go, this is the point i see myself yelling also pushing for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of algorithms that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. for some of those you should make your own foundation. some could find a sweet spot in FSF projects. also with some i disagree - technology is not bad per se, it's the use of it that can be bad. The struggle for freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization. exactly. why highjack dr. RMS and FSF, when you should make your own, thus making it "more than one organization"??? and you again do some word twisting - struggle for freedom is not what the stated mission of FSF is ("mission to promote computer user freedom."). If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that would be terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's why I'm continuing to engage here. hmm, seems to me that by equating people's concerns with your own concerns (or of a group of people) puts you in the position of the arbiter. you like to do that over and over again, i wonder if knowingly? i am sure FSF is willing to listen to all concerns. what they do with them might be different form one concern to other one. and again, different from what you want. Once i wrote a personal letter to dr. RMS, and to my big surprise, i got an answer. me, just a schmuck, i never expected for him to bother with some small talk with just some guy. he took the time. he took the time. Best, Deb On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva [1]<[1][2]lxol...@fsfla.org> wrote: On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson [2]<[2][3]d...@eximiousproductions.com> wrote: > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve former FSF > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at conferences or MIT > and many, many free software creators. That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account, before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers, and before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions to spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to spark. These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy of claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's often a valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish. Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates, keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the existence of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against leaps to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and being loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over a period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations haven't hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I encourage you to let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on copy. > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS > to step down, care deeply about free software. I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating with historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us. It's become really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good intentions behind the actions, given the present circumstances. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker [3][3][4]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar References 1. [4]mailto:[5]lxol...@fsfla.org 2. [5]mailto:[6]d...@eximiousproductions.com 3. [6][7]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [7][8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [8][9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis cuss i grew up in a socialist country (oh, did i mention that usa bombed it, yes) and what i am seeing now in the west reminds me of the brainwash propaganda i grew up in 40 odd years back. and yes, is totally wrong and always makes me a bit angry when westerners say a communist country, it shows the lack of knowledge. all them (us) commies were socialist countries, please be politically correct when you call them. also china today is not and never was communist, it is socialist. read up, educate, and be correct. also so many times i hear americans this americans that. so politically incorrect, when referring to citizens of usa and calling them americans, you "insult" all central and south americans and canadians. please be politically correct. etc. if you caught my point, there is not always the need to be politically correct, if the exchange of information was correct and no party of exchange was insulted, then the strict semantic can loosen up. but if you keep being insulted by this, that and my uncle, well then you might be quite a bigot (for the many times you've insulted south americans, and a billion and a half socialist chinese people, etc) Notice also that i began the letter with an emotionally charged personal views/feelings, just as you did, again to show you the mirror. So, as i began with quite an emotional tone, let me finish with an apology. We, the people should stand united in our differences and should try understanding each other and even when we don't, we shouldn't impose ways of behavior on others (of course, all within roza luxembourg maxim). is not really that hard, even if my reply doesn't show it much. So i hope you can accept my apologies for being blunt and a bit rude (when i grew up, back then, that kind of exchange wasn't necessarily being seen as rude at all) I hope, truly sincerely hope that one day, we (you and me and all) will no longer fight where fight isn't due. and class struggle becomes one class struggle, all class struggle. it feels even, that once not divided, victory is here. i salute you all from once socialist country g References 1. mailto:[1][10]lxol...@fsfla.org 2. mailto:[2][11]d...@eximiousproductions.com 3. [12]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 4. mailto:[13]lxol...@fsfla.org 5. mailto:[14]d...@eximiousproductions.com 6. [15]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 7. mailto:[16]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 8. [17]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss _______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [18]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [19]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss References 1. mailto:podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 3. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com 4. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 5. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 6. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com 7. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 10. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 11. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com 12. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 13. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 14. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com 15. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ 16. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 17. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 18. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 19. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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