Linux-Advocacy Digest #542, Volume #25 Tue, 7 Mar 00 12:13:08 EST
Contents:
Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux (Terry Porter)
Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux (Terry Porter)
Re: Open Software Reliability (Bastian)
Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux Sucks************************* (Terry Porter)
Re: Open Software Reliability ("Davorin Mestric")
Re: Giving up on NT (Eric Remy)
Re: Open Software Reliability ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: I can't stand this X anymore! (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Open Software Reliability (Nick Kew)
Re: Salary? (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Salary? (Eric LEMAITRE)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 8 Mar 2000 00:11:56 +0800
On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 23:36:25 GMT, Itchy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As a small business owner I am always interested in ways to save money. We
>switched from Apple to
>IBM when Apple's pricing became too much to handle. I recently tried Redhat
>Linux in the hopes
>that I could save some money.
>
>Well I spent 11 days messing around with this so called operating system and
>for the life
>of me can't figure out why in the world anyone in business would want to
>waste
>time on this obviously hacked together, half finished program.
>
>Maybe some day when it is completed I will try it again but for now, it has
>been thrown in the garbage can where it belongs. I have a business to run
>and can't waste time searching the internet looking for ways to accomplish
>simple tasks.
>Mr. Gates provides me easy ways of running my programs and as a result
>running my
>business. Linux had better wake up, fast.
>
>Aimee
>
>
Hi Steve, thanks for confirming my predictions, that you were lying as usual
when you said youd be leaving COLA.
To all who read this post, its a rehash of Steves earlier work, as he has run
out of new ideas and is scraping the bottom of his Windows barrel.
I predict his other incarnations (pickle_pete) etc will be along in this thread
to argue with all who reply.
Save yourself the hassle, and time, and do what steve really hates, kill-file
him.
Bye Steve.
<plonk>
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 9 hours 36 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 8 Mar 2000 00:13:22 +0800
On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 00:20:59 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And a classic LinoNut response if ever there was one.
>
>And you idiots wonder why NOBODY NORMAL is interested in running
>Linux?
Bye Steve
<plonk>
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 9 hours 36 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bastian)
Subject: Re: Open Software Reliability
Date: 07 Mar 2000 16:13:36 GMT
On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:08:02 +0100, Frank Mayer wrote:
>I wonder if someone could help me understand a claim that the development
>paradigm for open source software in general (and for Linux in particular)
>yields higher reliability, maintainability and stability.
>
>I understand that open source software is developed by a large decentralised
>group as a labour of love. It is hard to imagine that the developers would
>voluntairly submit themselves to the irksome quality requirements of, for
>instance, software generated using ISO-9000 standards.
Linux is posix compatible. You can write mails from and to linux systems, you
can access linux-based web-servers (running apache using a standard). You can
read and write all graphic formats, all audio formats, burn cds in the cdda
and the iso9660 format, install networks based on the tcp/ip standard, watch
tv with pal/ntsc standards, etc. (how much do you wanna hear :-)
>On the other hand, I imagine (?) that when a central authority pays for an
>operation system (or other) development, they can institute and enforce
>demanding quality standards. So I would expect that the code generated under
>the centrally controlled paradigm to be more easily maintainable.
I expect the code maintained by a single company (Micro$soft) can create
proprietary standars. Just look at activex. The easy maintainance is not very
interesting when a company owns the code, because it's hardly made public.
So, only the poor employees have to mess around with it.
>The Linux community claims that this is not so.
Indeed we do.
>Am I missing something?
You mean when you don't use Linux: yes.
Bastian.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Demo Day a letdown
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 8 Mar 2000 00:24:10 +0800
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:04:26 -0800, Gooba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Terry, you are *that* threatened
> Your argument about insulting the regulars is worthless.
> another form of elitism that you're pushing.
>
> You jumped down this guys throat
> You were out of line.
>
> All in all, act like a grown up,
> you're *not* the cock of the walk
Gooba, I thought I'd condense your thrust, which consists mainly of insults.
If you have a point to make, please be plain, your next stop is my kill file.
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 9 hours 36 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux Sucks*************************
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 8 Mar 2000 00:25:59 +0800
On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 03:23:09 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Subject says it all***************************
Yes it does McSwain, you're a troll ?
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 9 hours 36 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: "Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Open Software Reliability
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:20:11 +0100
this could also be explained by the fact that software more used will
heel the errors faster. the same holds for software with very short
version cycles.
"Bob Tennent" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well you could look at some real evidence. Technical Report
CS-TR-95-1268
> from Computer Sciences at the University of Wisconsin describes a
study of the
> robustness of system utilities on several UN*X systems. The clear
> winner was GNU/Linux. The commercial unices ranged from poor to
> terrible. The title of the report is "Fuzz Re-visited".
>
> Bob T.
------------------------------
From: Eric Remy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:31:26 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Realisitc in what sense? Pilots don't train on them. The realistic stuff
>is SGI based.
Bets?
Let's turn to the last page in my Private Pilots Manual.
It's an ad for a PC (Win95) based flight simulator. In bold print, in a
star: "Ask about our FS-200AC that's been approved by the FAA for
logging flight time!"
It's not cheap, but it's good enough for the FAA and it runs on a PC.
--
Eric Remy. Chemistry Learning Center Director, Virginia Tech
"I don't like (quantum mechanics), | How many errors can
and I'm sorry I ever had anything | you find in my X-Face?
to do with it."- Erwin Schrodinger |
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Open Software Reliability
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:39:07 -0600
Frank Mayer wrote:
> I wonder if someone could help me understand a claim that the development
> paradigm for open source software in general (and for Linux in particular)
> yields higher reliability, maintainability and stability.
>
> I understand that open source software is developed by a large decentralised
> group as a labour of love. It is hard to imagine that the developers would
> voluntairly submit themselves to the irksome quality requirements of, for
> instance, software generated using ISO-9000 standards.
>
> On the other hand, I imagine (?) that when a central authority pays for an
> operation system (or other) development, they can institute and enforce
> demanding quality standards. So I would expect that the code generated under
> the centrally controlled paradigm to be more easily maintainable.
>
> The Linux community claims that this is not so.
>
> Am I missing something?
Not an answer, but additional thoughts on both sides of the question:
o You could go the empirical route, and ask what the average uptime for Win9x
vs. Linux is.
o On the other hand, it cannot be taken for granted that all OS projects are
successes. Presumably many are started and never reach the critical mass of
interest that lets them survive, let alone reach stardom and set high standards
for reliability.
o Likewise, it would be unfair to assume that all software developed by a
"central authority" is as bad as a lot of the COTS trash you find at your
neighborhood computer store. Unix and VMS, for example, are not known for
their BSODs. (There's also the NASA's On Board Shuttle Group, which has
reportedly had exactly 17 bugs discovered *cumulative* over its last 11
releases, on a very complex system with 420K SLOC.)
o Standards and procedures are important, but are not always applied
meaningfully by some companies. Sometimes the goal is to be able to report
compliance rather than to actually improve your products.
o As for "easily maintainable", I would expect code being maintained by a team
of volunteers to naturally evolve into a state of easy maintainability. When
you're not getting paid by the hour and don't have a boss screaming down the
back of your neck, you're more likely to take the time to make a major
structural change that relaxes the code into a lower energy state (as it
were). It slows things down over the short term (anathema to screaming
bosses), but reduces the amount of maintenance over the longer haul (anathema
to *some* programmers paid by time, since it means turning themselves out of
the nest).
o Similarly, volunteer projects pretty much have to work by concensus, at
least with respect to the large scale structure, and that probably has the
effect of weeding out a lot of dumb ideas that might make it through the system
under a "central authority". It's trivially easy to find someone who has
experienced having anyone from supervisor up to CEO dictating how things should
be done and overriding the unanimous objections of the technical people who
know better. This is well nigh impossible with OS.
o It should be noted that the OS "release early, release often" paradigm is
not in fact very far removed from some of the paradigms taught in software
engineering classes. The difference is that with OS the most clueless of
customers can download and install v. 0.0-1, whereas with a commercial
enterprise only the internal staff would see any of the evolutionary version
prior to v. 1.0.
o Finally, I do think there is substance to the claim about having 10K pairs
of eyes looking at your code. (But per above, this only works if that many
brains take interest in the project.)
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: I can't stand this X anymore!
Date: 7 Mar 2000 16:31:59 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Lyle R. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would not say that lack of font smoothing is the only inadequacy
> of X. It's weakest link appears to me to be the whole font system.
> It would be nice if the font handling aspects of X were redesigned
> so that applications could get all the font info they need without
> having to have a separate set of fonts for printing as you mention.
> The problem probably is that it is still stuck on font bitmaps, even
> when using a scalable font, and if I recall correctly, it doesn't
> pass any more information along to the application than these
> bitmaps, which is the root of the whole printing problem.
X does make available the metrics for the fonts as well. Though it
seems that some people don't use that metric info very well... A way
for apps to get the actual font shapes from the X server would be
useful for building downloadable (usually Type1 or Type3) fonts for
printers/printer drivers.
Half the problem is that there are several groups of people wanting to
use fonts. There are the "we want perfect WYSIWYG" types[*] and there
are the "if it's close enough, I'm happy" types.
Donal.
[* These are pretty much the same people who claim that a graphics
program is completely useless to all mankind if it can't match the
colour on the screen perfectly to the colour on the printer. IOW
total control freaks. They like fixed-width web-pages too. Grr! ]
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Kew)
Subject: Re: Open Software Reliability
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:39:17 +0000
In article <8a2uvc$23mf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Frank Mayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Am I missing something?
Yes. Real-world experience. You should try some - for example,
programming in any ISO-accredited software house. When they have you
maintain some of their existing code, you're buried in bugs.
> On the other hand, I imagine (?) that when a central authority pays for an
> operation system (or other) development, they can institute and enforce
> demanding quality standards.
Think Dilbert.
Let me tell you a real-life anecdote. Any techie with more than a couple
of years experience will have them.
In 1992, I was one of three contractors for a company, each seconded to
a certain major international Client to develop custom software.
All of us were engineers with several years industry experience.
The Client had well-developed standards and processes, which in fact
worked far better than many I had experienced.
J. was a good engineer. He developed his system on time and budget, and
went through all the motions of the quality control. His software is
(AFAIK) working but unused to this very day.
Yours Truly was more proactive, and helped to redefine and improve the
Client's Spec. I also delivered on time and to budget, and - bottom line -
the system went into active operational use by several projects.
One component of the system appeared to be of more general interest,
so I also developed a more generalised and much improved program in my
own time, which I released independently under the GPL.
A. followed quality standards rigorously. The result was a long series
of documents explaining why the system couldn't be completed on time -
and it never was. With his attention to detail, he was promoted to
management, so he could enforce the same quality on others.
--
Nick Kew
We're so advanced here ... our nearest main road is called the A 386
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 16:43:55 GMT
In article <89sunr$f9i$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sorry if this is OT for these forums, but I really don't know where
> to post a question like this... I find myself in the somewhat
> embarassing position of stepping into a job as a Linux administrator
> and having no idea of how much I should be asking for, in terms of
> salary. Vital stats:
> Experience: 4.5 years running production Linux
> and UnixWare servers for
> my college, while a student. Paid positions,
> but still student work.
At this point, do you have a degree? In what field.
Clearly you have experience in UNIX system administration.
What statistics do you have? Did you fix problems quickly?
Average mean time to repair? Mean time between failures?
> About a year working for a pre-launch Internet
> start-up as an admin, and
> working as a PC Tech for a retail chain.
> I make about $10/hr at all of my jobs.
Working for peanuts for a year or so is a good way to get some
valuable experience. In 1980, I spent a year writing educational
software and teaching computer classes (using my software). At
the end of the year I went from $5/hour to $20K/year. I then took
the time to teach myself UNIX and went from $20K to $30K in Rochester
New York. As demand for my skills increased so did my salary.
If you can maintain the practice of upgrading your skills and
keep adding new skills, you can easily achieve increases of 20%/year
on average until reach the point where non-cash compensation (stock
options, stock payments, and "lifestyle" compensation such as travel.
If you merely "do your job", you typically only get 4-5% increases.
> The job: Southern California; running ~20 production and development
> servers for a high-profile operation; Linux x86 and Solaris SPARC
> platforms. It's a well-established multinational corporation
> operating well in the black.
Southern California is very hungry for UNIX people. You need to know
the type of cash-flow this company has, and what your impact on that
cash-flow would be. If you are a junior member of a large
administration team, you probably wont get as much as you get if
you are the primary person accountable for keeping the systems running
when the systems are generating $1000/minute or better.
> I'll be going into this job straight out of school,
> and if it works out (fingers crossed!) I'll likely be
> staying for a while; what they do is
> what I'm all about, and it looks like a perfect match
> for me. BUT...
The typical rate for UNIX administrators with a college degree
and 1 year of experience is around $30K-$40K, depending on where
you live.
> I don't want to short-change myself going in. In my (limited!)
> experience, you stand a much better chance of getting what's
> fair if you demand it at the onset; if you realize a year into
> the job that you're not making the market's wage, it's typically
> a lot more difficult to get a substantial raise, no?
Not necessarily. Often, high performers quickly get promotions,
stock options, and bonuses that can be worth several times their
salary. By the end of my second year in Rochester, I'd produced
some impressive results. The company offered me options on 2000
shares of the company stock. Later they offered the ability to
convert to Non Qualified opitons at a much lower price. When the
company was sold, these options were worth almost $25,000 or nearly
60% of my salary at that time.
It's a good idea to get familiar with business and investing. There
are some powerful ways to get some huge leverage. If you start with
a successful and growing concern that is either publicly held or
pre-IPO, you can do very nicely if you stick around.
> So... Any suggestions as to salary?
> I would greatly appreciate hearing
> from those who might have some insight into this.
Express your concerns. Let them know that you are open to a
contingincy plan that would kick-in if you met certian specific
measurable results. Also give them the ability to give you
additional bonuses and salaries for unspecified contributions.
It's also a good idea to build your network while you are working.
Collect business cards of all vendors, coworkers, and customers as
appropriate. Don't be afraid to ask those people you have helped out
to put in a good word. These should be fed back to your manager
and you should praise your manager to his manager. It's politics,
but only 30% of most IT solutions are technical - the hardest part
is getting the support of all the other parties.
Offer to provide services that increase the company's visibility.
Speaking at conferences, submitting articles, and working as an
advisor to members of the press can be a very good way to increase
your value.
If you can establish yourself as a "star performer", your company
will do whatever it takes to keep you around. If you make your boss
look good, make your organization look good, and make your company
look good, they will want to make you look good.
A "star performer" can easily get offers of six figure incomes from
multiple organizations. Your employer knows this. Hopefully, they
will see that you are worth more to them as one of their employees
than as someone working for a competitor, a supplier, or a customer.
In some cases, when finances and policies make it impossible to
provide the proper compensation package, they will literally "push
you out the door". I have had this happen a few times. The employer
helped me find positions with suppliers or customers. Today, I'm
grateful they did this. In one case, I'd reached a position where
I couldn't be promoted within the group, but I was clearly providing
the quality of service that merited a promotion. They gave me
a generous reccomendation, and my next position was for a 30% increase
with an upward mobility path.
> Now that Linux has
> finally started to pay off (been using
> it since SLS was "it" and never
> thought I'd see this level of penetration!)
> I find I don't know how much
> my Linux abilities should be compensated.
It will be important to add Solaris and UNIX administration
to your skill set. You want to be able to offer the ability
to transition from low-end product to a large-capacity system
like an E-10K or an SP/2.
The important thing is that - unlike your Microsoft-only trained
classmates - you are 95% of the way there. In fact, you can do
more to solve Linux problems that your Solaris gurus can do to solve
Solaris problems.
> Thanks!
>
> - Robert Nichols
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 30 million satisfied users
and growing at over 1%/week!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Eric LEMAITRE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 17:53:56 +0100
"Michael C. Vergallen" a écrit :
> In Belgium the total Tax burdon is at 55 % on incomes. 21 % on goods
> purchased. Now they also want to tax capital gains at 20 - 30 %. Life is
> realy expensive. If you don't inherit or are corrupt you have no chance of
> getting ahead ... Now they also want to tax capital you won't even be able
> to get ahead by inheriting... My 110 square meter flat is valued at 75000
> Euro. So this makes property value aprox 700 Euro a square meter in Gent
> witch is not a expensive city compared to Brussels.
Hi Michael !
So we are neighbours no only by geography in excessive governmental tax burden
too. Sob.
In France this is strictly the same, sadly.
When do you flee from Belgium for USA :-)) ?
Bye !
--
Eric LEMAITRE
Ingénieur CNAM (CNAM Computer Engineer, MSD)
Ingénieur et Formateur certifié Linux Red-Hat (RHCE & RHCX Certified)
Responsable de formation pour les filières Internet et Linux (Head of
Internet/Linux Education Department)
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