Linux-Advocacy Digest #762, Volume #25 Wed, 22 Mar 00 23:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux sure is coming around... ("chris lee")
Re: WARNING! DO NOT USE WORD! (was: UNIX recruiters and MS Word resumes) (Donn
Miller)
Re: They say it can be done...Can it? (mlw)
Re: Why Linux on the desktop? (Terry Porter)
Re: Bsd and Linux (Paul D. Smith)
test ("abc")
Re: linux statistics. (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Bsd and Linux (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Bsd and Linux (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "chris lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux sure is coming around...
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:09:02 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter) wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2000 22:34:07 GMT, JoeX1029 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Everybody is selling Linux!! My local Wal-mart is selling Linux! I was
>> recently in my favorite computer store in the OS section and some guy
>>picked up the Winblowme 2000 box. I'm thinking "ahh man another box
>>bites the dust..." but no! after seeing the $ he grunted in surprise
>>and put it back and picked up the RedHat 6.1 deluxe box. Guess what he
>>ended up buying....
>>
>>So much for Linux is losing popularity.
>
> To anyone new here, I'm well known as a Linux zealot (ask Steve the
> Wintroll
> ;-)
>
> However this commercialization of Linux has me worried, and I'd like to
> say why.
>
> Firstly the Aus.linux newsgroup was beseiged by Windows users who had
> picked up a free copy of Linux, attached to a Windows magazine, which
> sprouted about the good and magical properties of Linux, and the army of
> friendly Linux users, just waiting to help them should they have any
> problems.
>
> After the first 200 whiney "please hold my hand, while I cry about lost
> expectations" I kill-filed any mention of this magazine, and cut the
> noise considerably.
>
> To me this is a BIG problem, the commercial vendors want to SELL Linux,
> or a magazine, and will promise all kind of things to do that. The
> damage they cause is no concern to them, as they get boosted sales for a
> time if theyre a magazine, or just tell people to go to the ng's if
> theyre a cd seller.
>
> Hell I'd employ Steve to vet the adds on these commercial magazines if I
> could, at least he wouldn't promise the moon, then after they purchase
> the mag and cd make them go and get the bloody thing themselves.
>
> To me Linux hasnt really changed since 1997, you still NEED to
> understand it to use it, and buying on price alone to me, is a BIG
> mistake.
>
> Especially when you consider you can get Linux for a couple of dollars
> from Cheapbytes, instead of in a nice flash, colorfull box with a book,
> for $100!
>
>
> Food for thought ?
Yeah. If you don't know what you are doing, stay the hell away
from places like CheapBytes.
You can find books on Linux that include a Linux cdrom at most
bookstores starting at around $20.00
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:16:50 -0500
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WARNING! DO NOT USE WORD! (was: UNIX recruiters and MS Word resumes)
Tim Kelley wrote:
> They always edit your resumes. Usually, they get reformatted (in
> word) to have their company logo, and to be unifrom, etc., before
> being distributed to clients. It would seem stupid, given this,
> that they would want anything but plain text, but hey, whatever.
Yeah, I can't understand that either. Another problem is that you
really can't tell which version of Word they have. If you have Word
97, and they have an older version, they won't be able to edit it. I
submitted it in WP format. Even then, I'm sure some stuff is going to
come out of format.
Word is able to convert text docs to Word very easily. It's also easy
to change the fonts in the entire document with a few keystrokes. I
guess I'll have to keep Corel WP8 on my system just for that, then.
I'm gonna try to find some converters from dvi to rtf or Word format.
- Donn
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: They say it can be done...Can it?
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:21:40 -0500
LFessen106 wrote:
>
> I have heard that Linux can be run on a 386 wityh 4 megs of ram several
> times... WELL, I'd like to test that theory, and I happen to have an old
> working 386 12mhz with 4 megs of ram and a 200 meg hdd. Can it be done? You
> tell me (please!). What distro should I use? What in the world can I do with
> a 386 12 running Linux? What would it be good for (if anything)? This is just
> a fun project and I just *hate* throwing good hardware away. The pc is runnnig
> win3.11 happily right now, but I am SURE that we could make better use of it
> that that right?
> -Linc.
You'd probably have to make a custom kernel, and install a very minimal
system. I bet you could run it as a firewall.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 9x, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Why Linux on the desktop?
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 23 Mar 2000 11:24:54 +0800
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:15:26 GMT,
George Richard Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:39:59 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:17:31 GMT, George Richard Russell
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Because a free stable and released spread sheet that is equivalent to Win 3.1
>>>era spread sheets doesn't exist?
>>
>> That's nothing more than repeating an unsupported assertion.
>> Repeating something over and over again doesn't, by itself,
>> make something true.
>
>What free spreadsheet has equivalent functionality to Lotus 123 from SmartSuite
>96, the last 16 bit windows 3.1 version?
>
>Go on, list them Jedi.
>
>If Gnumeric is all you've got to offer, you lose.
Xslite, and a few others, easy to find George, and not the big production you
infer.
>
>>>
>>>SIAG is as good as it gets, or Ksiag, the Qt / KDE port.
>>
>> 'As good as it gets' by one person's underdetailed
>> subjective estimation isn't a very useful metric
>> for determining whether or not something might be
>> sufficient for a wide range of users.
>
>Sufficient for a wide range of users does not equate to equivalent
>functionality, Quit moving the goalposts. And answer the question.
Equivalent functionality is a strawman, if you want that stay with your
existing aplication.
For many Linux apps to have the equivalent functionality of Windows or Dos
apps, they would have to have an arm tied behind their backs.
>
>>>
>>>>>StarOffice just is horrible. Usable, sure, but not nice.
>>>>
>>>> Please define 'horrible' in less meaningless terms.
>>>
>>>In your words, bloated. Badly designed, poorly documented, unoptimised,
>>>and a poor and inacurate clone of a better interface.
>>
>> Bloated is an aspect of trying too much to be like msoffice
>> and is not a problem limited to StarOffice.
>
>At least Office has seperate executables - I don't want SOffices integrated
>desktop, browser, PIM, db, spreadsheet, mail / news client, image editor,
>slide show tool etc when all I want to do is view a document and edit it.
>
>V3 had it right.
>
>>How is it poorly
>> documented?
>
>Context sensitive help that isn't available in every context.
>Missing docs on various topics and features.
>
>> StarOffice is not that remarkable in terms of being bad or good.
>
>In terms of price and platform support, it excels, in given features too,
>in docs, no, performance, no, UI, no.
>
>>>
>>>> The 3D effects on SO5's graph are actually quite spiffy
>>>> and manage to be eye candy superior to it's MS counterpart.
>>>
>>>Its file filters are inferior, its slower, has redraw / refresh problems,
>>
>> Actually, it's file filters aren't bad. They're not 'perfect'
>> but then again nothing short of 'office itself' is going to
>> provide that.
>
>Lotus (ime) has always been the best. Especially for range of filters -
>from dead DOS WP's on up to Office.
>
>The redraw problems are a real pain.
>
>>>poor documentation, inferior macro langauge / capabilities, and fewer
>>>"spiffy" graphing effects, and handles fonts poorly (across platforms, too)
>>
>> Unless you're someone that makes extensive use of fonts in interesting
>> ways, this whole 'bad fonts' bit is just a red herring. Also, without
>> more detail in terms of what you can't do 'bad macro language' is still
>> quite vague.
>
>Actually, it had problems with fonts at random times, making all fonts fixed
>width in presentations / word processed documents. In Solaris and Win 98.
>
>The macro langauge is not as complete as VBA, despite similarities.
>
>>>The tools for Unix i.e. its Word processors are less capable.
>>
>> No. They are quite capable. The big problem is that anything not
>> 'the one true program' will typically have problem dealing with
>> data from that 'one true program'. This is no less a problem running
>> under Windows if you happen to think exercising one of the other
>> choices is appropriate for you.
>
>Nope, most Linux WP's only seem to support documents in RTF and are therefore
>limited to what can be expressed in RTF physical markup.
At least RTF is a standard, your flash expressions, come at the price of
incompatibility.
>
>Those that don't are like kword, abiword, pre releases, or Commercial, still
>not comparable to first rate WP's.
>
>>>
>>>>>for years, nothing better could be had for Unix.
>>>>
>>>> So? You still haven't told us why we wouldn't want to use
>>>> it over something else.
>>>
>>>Its not as good, put simply. Good enough for some perhaps.
>>
>> That is too simple. It is completely meaningless in relating
>> to how anyone else uses those applications. It's useless in
>> determining whether or not you have a point or are just full
>> of hot air and rhetoric.
>
>Because they lack features that users want. Grammar checking. Templates.
>Auto correction. Mail merging. Wizards. the list goes on.
Users also want stability, non crashability, documents that don't suddenly
"dissapear".
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>E-mail? Good old mutt and elm; Netscape (when it works); emacs.
>>>>>
>>>>>All lacking in the warm fuzzie ease of use and setup stakes - Netscapes client,
>>>>>essentially the same across platforms, sucks, and uses Motif.
>>>>
>>>> So? Exactly how much easier would the competitors be to deal
>>>> with and why?
>>>
>>>Familiarity. Integration. Decent documentation. Modern interface. Tool tips.
>>>Sensible defaults. GUI configuration. Intended for Desktop Usage.
>>
>> Sensible is subjective.
>> GUI configuration is available.
>
>for mutt and elm? Show me where.
Xterm ?
>
>> "intended for desktop usage" is gibberish.
>
>As opposed to console usage on a multiuser system.
>It does mean novice friendly documentation. Tried reading mutts docs?
>
>> Integration is also present, it just requires applications
>> to be able to communicate via Motif facilities. Gnome
>> has this.
>
>Gnome is in no way integrated with say, mutt or elm, and to Netscape only
>to the extent of understanding DND when its not crashing. They can't
>even match colours.
>
>> The interface is no more or less modern than it's main
>> competitor.
>
>In Netscape? Its what, how old since they did more than add a
>shopping button? When was the last change to the UI of
>the integrated mail / news tool, 4.5 or was it 4.0?
>
>elm and mutt do not have especially modern UI's - and are not intended
>to have.
>
>> Tool tips really shouldn't be that crucial for NS.
>
>Its just and example of the comforts of a well desinged UI, so
>lacking in Linux / X11 / Nutscrape whatever.
>
>>>Like integration, documentation, ease of use and setup, designed for offline
>>>use, familiarity, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Integration should not need to mean 'built into one huge indeterminate
>> mass'. A caching nntp server integrates fine with any other client.
>
>Yeah right, its configuration system is mentioned in the client documentation,
>the setup tool available from a clients menu, right?
>
>An integrated news reader will let you configure how and from where your
>news is fetched without other sw, like leafnode or suck.
>
>> Documentation is not an issue with nntp clients.
>
>Comapre the docs with say, slrn to those of Agent. slrn's assume more
>knowledge and familiarity with Unix / USENET / etc.
>
>Its also not terribly task based - there is no documentation of howto
>change, for example, the colours used. It just says edit the rc file.
The rc file is self explanitory, because its TEXT. You're stuck in your world
of binary registeries George.
>Not terribly novice welcoming. Nor is falling back to vi as editor.
Incorrect: Slrn does not "fall back to Vi"
>Nor having to quit and restart to change configuration options.
We dont do this but once.
>Nor having slrnpull a sperately configured and run application.
Slrn does not need Slrnpull, and so what if its a seperate app ???
>
>>Ease of setup is
>> also pretty much a non-issue. Leafnode is quite nice in this respect.
>
>Yes, you like to edit things like /etc/inetd.conf? /etc/leafnode/leafnode.conf?
Sure, at least we *can* George, where are your tcp wrappers in Windows ?.
>
>There are some web and GUI config tools, but incomplete and unstable.
Bull, The Dotfile generator is excellent if you need help, configuring
a simple well commented textfile.
Recently I tried to help a lady over the irc *configure* Free-Agent. Too hard.
She never got it going.
It makes NO difference whether its GUI or text, if you dont know the
news server addy, you're screwed.
>
>> Any gui client will have a configuration system comparable to any
>> other gui client. A proper news client shouldn't care whether or not
>> it's functioning offline or not.
>
>But they shouldn't force me to setup and run a local server, just to read news
>offline.
They dont, slrnpull is easy to set up.
>
>>>ispell via a pipe - I'd rather have Word like underlining, or a spellcheck
>>>toolbutton to press.
Pipes are handy, why limit yourself to whats labeled on your menu buttons ?
>>
>> Then use a different $EDITOR or pester the author if this facility
>> in the gui newsreader in question is not available in a nice shiny
>> happy fashion.
>
>It was an example - I can think of few uses to me for piping messages.
>
>> Your position is based on lies and GROSS ignorance.
>
>And yours simply on the assumption that if Linux doesn't have it, its not
>worth having.
Nonsense, your so stuck in the MS mindset George, try and break out!
>
>George Russell
>--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours 36 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul D. Smith)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Bsd and Linux
Date: 22 Mar 2000 22:36:22 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
%% "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
ptb> So what does PAM buy you that isn't already there? Bear in mind that
ptb> only su, login and xdm use it!
Uh... maybe on your system. On mine (Debian 2.2 frozen) this is what
happens if I try to remove libpam0g:
Remv telnetd
Remv adduser
Remv dialdcost
Remv diald
Remv ssh
Remv pppconfig
Remv ppp
Remv sudo
Remv smbfs
Remv smbclient
Remv swat
Remv samba
Remv samba-common
Remv passwd
Remv shellutils
Remv login
Remv libpam-modules
Remv xscreensaver
Remv xlockmore
Remv screen
Remv rstartd
Remv rsh-server
Remv libpam0g
--
===============================================================================
Paul D. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Network Management Development
"Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist
===============================================================================
These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
------------------------------
From: "abc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,tw.bbs.campus.job
Subject: test
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:50:21 +0800
bvcgmnvj
jhyfjhg
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: linux statistics.
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:42:30 GMT
In article <8b8psv$8be$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> www.statmarket.com had linux usage share at about 0.2%, counting html
> clients. they count about 40 million different daily
> visitors, so those stats are as good as they get.
Statmarket count the most recent user of an IP address. AOL assigns
each dial-up user a DHCP assigned address that is exposed directly
to the internet. Most Linux friendly ISPs, especially those which
use Linux or FreeBSD for their POP servers use IP masquerading. This
means that each Linux IP could be hiding as many as 128 users. A
safe guess of the average would be 24 users/IP (given that a T1
trunk carries 24 dial-up lines). This would be 1 trunk per server.
The 0.2% was published back in mid 1999, when only a few million
users were using Netscape 4.5 - the first to declare the OS to be
"Linux" instead of "X11/UNIX". At that time, the "filtered" input
(last IP address) also showed that 4% were using "UNIX".
Furthermore, many Linux users don't use Linux to access the web
because of firewall and winmodems. My laptop has a built-in winmodem,
but the procedure for running the modem under Linux isn't practical.
Andover.net has identified 3 million unique visitors/month. This
might be a good count since Andover sponsors freshmeat and
several other Linux-friendly sites. They also metered 60
million hits/month. That's not a particularly big sample, but
it gives a sense of what's happening.
Corel has reported deliveries of Word Perfect, including downloads,
bundleware, Corel Linux deluxe, and stand-alone retail sales of
over 1 million copies per month since the release of WordPerfect 8
for Linux. They didn't get WordPerfect Office out until after
end of the quarter. These are all Linux numbers.
The usage chart http://www.statmarket.com/SM?c=WeekStat
shows that Windows 98 gets 60% of the market on weekdays,
and Windows 95 gets 22% on weekdays. That means 18% of
the market is using "other". On week-ends, Win98 gets
just over 66% and Win95 gets just under 23% leaving
11% in "other". I'm sure a good chunk of th weekday
extra is Windows NT and some Mac. Given the nature
of the measure, each 1% given to Linux could be 20 million
users (5% of the total market).
I have links to a series of articles on Linux market at
www.open4success.com
Keep in mind that counting Linux usage is like herding cats.
According to Linux Counter (www.linuxcounter.org) only about 40% of
their registered Linux users are american, SuSE and TurboLinux
were geared toward european and asian customers respectively,
especially those who don't speak english. I occaisionally get
quoted on German sites (the publisher sends me an invitation to
view the link).
I've estimated Linux at about 6% of the global market or about
60 million users. Microsoft has sold over 500 million copies of
Windows 9x and another 300 million of Windows 3.1, and about
30 million copies of NT, they've even given away about 10 million
copies of Windows 2000 (free upgrades to NT 4.0 purchasers).
> Shibu Basheer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:%XwB4.14001$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Hello!
> >
> > I am looking for some web site which
> > can provide some statistics about linux
> > usage throughout the world, and compared
> > to other operating systems.
The best statistics about Linux usage aren't free. IDC has
been tracking the server market and Yahoo, Netscape, and
Microsoft have been running very accurate counters based on
cookies as well as IP addresses. This is why Microsoft was
so concerned about Linux and has made reliability a priority
with Windows 2000.
> > Also about number of linux web servers out there..
According to the IDC survey, and the Netcraft servay, based
on unit volumes of shipped unites, Linux now has 30% of the
servers on the internet. Keep in mind that it is perfectly
legal to install the distribution CD on multiple systems.
Other metrics worth investigating are sales of Partition Magic,
Boot Magic, and System Commander - all of which are routinely
used instead of FIPs to repartition disks and manage multiple
bootable operating systems. You should probably give 10% of
this market to FreeBSD and the BSD derivatives as well.
> > I need this for a college report.
> > I would appreciate any help!
> > Thanks.
Hope this helps.
> > Also, could you Cc your reply to my email address :
>
>
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 1%/week!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Bsd and Linux
Date: 23 Mar 2000 04:03:43 GMT
On 23 Mar 2000 01:01:53 GMT, Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.development.apps I R A Darth Aggie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>All the mentioned "services" are more than adequately catered for
>already. Authentication is the job of login (or kerberized login).
Kerberized login offers similar functionality to pam, but standard
login certainly doesn't.
>Account management is quota.
Tell us how to set a limit on virtual memory using "quota".
> Session management is kdm.
kdm doesn't let you set memory limits either.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Bsd and Linux
Date: 23 Mar 2000 04:09:24 GMT
On 22 Mar 2000 23:43:43 GMT, Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.development.apps Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>: On 22 Mar 2000 14:15:57 GMT, Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>: It's awfullly nice to have centralised control over both the login
>: proceedure and session management. Suppose you want everyone to authenticate
>
>That's called /etc/csh.login and /etc/profile.
What if you add another shell ? Oops, you've screwed up already. Not
very robust IMO.
BTW, two config files that duplicate each others functionality is not
"centralised control". It's a maze and tangle of loose ends.
>: against one server ( rather than requiring seperate user accounts on
>
>That's called NIS.
AKA "Network Intruder Service"
>: different machines ). You can do it with PAM. Suppose you want to set user
>: limits without having to close all loopholes ( ie the login files for
>
>That's called quota.
Show me how to set memory limits with quota.
>: every user shell, plus X sessions ). It's one file with PAM. Suppose
>: you don't want anyone logging in between 1-2am on Sundays. PAM makes this
>
>That's called userctl (or whatever it is called .. I've never used it).
Don't have it.
>Oh yes? The configuration file is absolutely incomprehensible,
>and I AM an expert,
Well not expert enough. It's easy enough for me, and I'm not an expert.
Then again, the config file Redhat ship is well commented.
>So what does PAM buy you that isn't already there? Bear in mind that
>only su, login and xdm use it!
Wrong. You're not even close. Every network service on my system uses it
( not just the ones that authenticate via login ).
--
Donovan
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
