Linux-Advocacy Digest #122, Volume #26 Fri, 14 Apr 00 05:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time....... (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Linux for ex-Windows users (long story) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Steve wins Nobel-prize! (was: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time.......)
(Truckasaurus)
Re: uptime -> /dev/null ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Vehical Comparisons (Truckasaurus)
Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time....... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Vehical Comparisons (Truckasaurus)
Re: Fix it with Source (was: Vehical Comparisons) (Truckasaurus)
Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Vehical Comparisons (Truckasaurus)
KOffice (Martijn Bruns)
Re: Vehical Comparisons (Truckasaurus)
Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux? (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux? (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux? (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Vehical Comparisons ("Davorin Mestric")
What GUI development tools are there for Linux? (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Why Linux on the desktop? (Donal K. Fellows)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time.......
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:48:43 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When the folks with all the money, because it really IS about money,
> start pulling the strings, GPL will go down the drain.
Actually, the smart money wants MORE GPL not less. The cost of
hardware drops by 1/2 every year, while the cost of creating new
software increases by about 10%/year. The days of "roll your own"
from scratch are long gone.
The more recent strategy has been to use shrink-wrapped packages
from various vendors and try to cobble them together using C, C++,
or Java. Invariably, the integration effort eventually degenerates
into various vendors fighting for the biggest piece of the "Consulting"
pie, usually by witholding information. Since each group is holding
their little secret, the project spins out of control. Eventually,
one or more of the consultants start pulling GPL tricks from under
their sleeves.
Look carefully at the number of Apache servers, especially those
running on Linux or BSD Open Source platforms. While the number
of units is very high - as much as 65-70% of the market, the cost
is less than 5% of the market.
Part of the trick is that consulting goes into a different pot.
You can pay $0 for Apache, but you still need to pay up to $300/hour
for the consultants who will write your mod-perl or Java Servlets
and integrate your web server to back-end systems like MVS, CICS,
or UNIX. Fortunately, it's easier to get "quick hits", and leverage
time with GPL software.
> Just a matter of time..
Ironically, Cygnus has just started marketing a "UNIX for NT" package
that lets you port Linux source code to NT systems. This is very good
because it means that those wanting to explore Linux can "sample"
applications on NT or Windows 2000. If there is a real hit, it can
easily be made available to Linux and MS-Windows.
> And this is a GOOD thing because all of the half assed, half done
> programs that masquerade as Linux alternatives to Windows will die a
> quick and just death.
Actually, considering that the "Desktop Initiative" is in it's
infancy (initiated July 1998, first releases July 1999, first
Desktop packages (Mandrake) November 1999.
> Money rules the world and Linux will find out sooner or later.
The key is that it's the CUSTOMER'S money that rules. Why should
the customer spend $1 million in ROYALTIES and LICENSES and THEN
pay for Consulting that may not pan out, hen they can get a prototype
going on a surplus system and then migrate it to something more
powerful.
We have about 500 million computers that have been sold since 1994
(according to Microsoft's numbers). Each contains chips loaded with
arsenic, lead, tin, and monitors that contain Phosphorous, lead,
and other toxic compounds. The EPA really doesn't want you to
throw these things away. The great thing about Linux is that
you can keep adding boxes additively.
What's really fun is to take something like a Cobalt Qube and
add it to the laptop. It travels pretty nicely too. There
are other "Linux Appliances" that look like small paperback novels,
and you can even create clusters.
When it comes to "bang for the buck", it's hard to beat Linux.
I always get a kick out of Windows 2000. We now have Athalon chips
that crank 1 billion instructions per second - which means 1 million
instructions per millisecond - and it takes 10 milliseconds to read
a sector from a hard drive - 10 million instructions - enough to count
the number of words in "War and Peace". The serial mouse runs about
1200 baud or just a little over 100 bytes/second - that's 10 million
instructions between each pixel on the mouse.
It was only about 15 years ago that a Vax 11/780 with 1 million
instructions per second could handle 100 users typing characters
into an ASCII terminal (usually a VT-100 or equivalent) and would
send back curses generated strings to handle overlapping windows,
multiple frames, and other "character" interfaces - nearly 1000
bytes per second, with only a very occasional "slow-down". Today,
with the power equivalent to 1000 vax machines in a 750 Mhz Athalon
or comparable Pentium III, it really seems silly that Windows 2000
couldn't handle a few thousand concurrent users.
> Steve
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 1%/week!
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux for ex-Windows users (long story)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:50:07 GMT
Ahh, yes. My first response to a coworker when he asked me to help him
with his Linux system was "this isn't real UNIX".
That was five years ago. The UNIX boxes I still admin aren't as good as
they used to be. Or maybe they are; they're exactly what they used to
be five years ago.
I never got converted to Windows, being a UNIX bigot. I went straight
to Linux. But I now have the same problem with UNIX that some people
have with Windows. I've been spoiled by Linux. Linux has made amazing
progress in five years, but HP-UX and AIX are still about the same as
they were.
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Steve wins Nobel-prize! (was: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time.......)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:59:09 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When the folks with all the money, because it really IS about money,
> start pulling the strings, GPL will go down the drain.
>
> Just a matter of time..
>
> And this is a GOOD thing because all of the half assed, half done
> programs that masquerade as Linux alternatives to Windows will die a
> quick and just death.
>
> Money rules the world and Linux will find out sooner or later.
Rule this, steve:
http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/000410D412 :
"Compaq Computer Corp. led the pack for shipping Linux servers.
According to the study, Compaq sent the bulk of units — 18,088 — during
1999's fourth quarter, representing 25% of the market. Linux server
shipments tallied $84 million in factory sales for Compaq, IDC said."
84 Megadollars. That's money, and money chose Linux. Therefore, by your
own logic GNU/Linux is a winner.
Now you can go to Sweden and pick up your Nobel Prize for excellent
thinking...
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: uptime -> /dev/null
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:05:19 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also, cars last longer when you put a given amount of miles on them by
> going on long trips (analogous to leaving your computer on) as opposed
> to putting the same number of miles with a lot of little stop-and-go
> type trips. Those little stop-and-go trip drivers are a lot like
> Windows users. Unix users (FreeBSD, Linux) are like the drivers who
> go on long highway trips.
I run my Linux box just long enough to get the oil up to operating
temperature. Keeps the sludge from building up, eh?
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:30 GMT
In article <8d2q2a$g6m$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> nice try.
>
> however, most of the people DON'T have problems when running windows
that
> are not solvable.
That's actually true! And the solution isn't complicated - it's a
standard solution that can be applied every time something goes wrong:
Reboot. If this doesn't help, reinstall your software.
Of course, you're in deep dung if the problem remains after
reboot/reinstallation, but Bill got his money, and that's all that
counts...
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: GPL WILL die...Just a matter of time.......
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:16:20 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When the folks with all the money
customers... us. you. me. Not Gates or even Cowpland.
> , because it really IS about money,
No shit.
> start pulling the strings, GPL will go down the drain.
What has a "free" licensing scheme got to do with money?
> Just a matter of time..
Care to make a prediction?
> And this is a GOOD thing because all of the half assed, half done
> programs that masquerade as Linux alternatives to Windows will die a
> quick and just death.
And what will happen to all the half-assed, half-done programs that
masquerade as Windows?
> Money rules the world and Linux will find out sooner or later.
Methinks Linux found it out way sooner than MSFT will.
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:21:22 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Davorin Mestric wrote:
>
> > i have yet to see someone that actually used source to fix some
problem that
> > he had with linux. "you have source so you can fix your problem"
is a myth.
>
> You'd probably be surprised how many have.. I know I have. I've only
done
> really small things, usually fixing something in the UI that I didn't
care for.
> Case in point: ssh does a strcmp when you ssh to a machine you've not
been to
> before.. so you have to type in "yes" or "no" exactly. I hacked the
code so
> that even a 'y', 'Y', 'n', 'N' work. Sure, small change but with a
windows
> program I don't have that ability at all.
>
> I think the biggest advantage that OSS has, is it gives potential
programmers
> something to learn from. You don't have to use a book and it's
examples by
> themselves to learn something like writing a device driver. You can
look at the
> code of another driver to learn how that person did it.
In medieval times, only the priests knew latin, and the peasants were
kept ignorant, so that they were easy to control; a priest could tell
you that the bible says that if you envy the lord of manor for his
wealth, you would go to hell.
When the art of printing delivered knowledge to the people, the power
that the priests had was broken.
With the knowledge that comes with the ability to look at source code,
you don't have to put up with MS priests livung off you like leaches;
You are in charge!
Linux kicks medieval MS butt!
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
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Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fix it with Source (was: Vehical Comparisons)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:27:58 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tesla Coil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(...)
> It wasn't
> necessary for me to wait for the next version of the program,
- for which you would have to pay top dollar, _again_ if it had
happened in the MS world;
"But it has a talking paperclip..."
- Yeah great, a talking paperclip! How's that for
improving your quality of life!
Open source gives the power back to the user, where it belongs. If
people don't want it, it's their loss.
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:07:38 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) wrote in <8d5imn$1p4j$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Wow.
>
>Suddenly my response is alot less funny. You should make it your
>business to know what plan-9 was...in fact EVERY person who is
>interested in computers should make it their business to know what
>plan-9 was.
Why? What is plan-9 (for the second and last time)?
--
============
Pete Goodwin
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:38:59 GMT
In article <8d6ct0$deq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In article <8d1q7b$6p7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Niall Wallace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(...)
> > If it Runs out of fuel then you drift about until the Helicopter
finds
> you
> > If it runs out of food then you starve until the Helicopter finds
you
> > If the captain has messed up then there is nothing you can do about
it
> > If it hit an Iceberg, Youre f****d
> > So what would you rather travel in
>
> The helicopter.
Rich boy, eh? (Helicopter=Propriety UNIX).
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Martijn Bruns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: KOffice
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:55:38 +0200
Hi advocates!
I just checked out the koffice website to see how they are doing,
and it got me a little worried!
Is it just that the page hasn't been updated recently, or has the
project itself come to a screeching halt. Does anyone know
some more about this?
I have high hopes for this package, as it would fill the needs
of so many would-be Linux-users! I sure hope it's just
the website itself!
------------------------------
From: Truckasaurus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:54:39 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Davorin Mestric wrote:
>
> > nice try.
>
> It was, wasn't it.
>
> > however, most of the people DON'T have problems when running
windows that
> > are not solvable.
>
> Really? So how come M$ make so much money from the premium rate help
lines?
MS charges money for help line services? I thought that was included in
the price for Win*.
Have I been listening too much to NT advocates?
> > most of the people that run linux DO have problems running and
installing
> > linux.
>
> Do they?
I do. DOS and Windows don't seem to respect my wish to have Linux on my
PC -> problems running and installing Linux.
> > linux apps crash more often.
>
> Whatt kind of sh*t is this? You wouldn't be a *gasp* troll would you?
At least
> have the decency to back this up with bogus statistics.
I have yet to experience my Linux system to crash.
A while ago NT workstation BSOD'd on me after 6 _hours_ uptime, and I
wasn't even using the d... thing actively - happened while I was reading
a manual.
X has been freezing on me a couple of times, though.
> >i have yet to see someone that actually used source to fix some
problem that
>
> > he had with linux. "you have source so you can fix your problem"
is a myth.
>
> How many people have you seen running linux? Any?
I've never had problems big enough to justify using time on tweaking
source code, but then again, I mainly use mainstream Open Source
Software that others have debugged over and over, until great stability
and usability was acheived.
--
"It's the best $50 bucks I ever spent. I would have paid five
times that for what your 'New You' packet allowed me to do!!!"
-- K. Waterbury, CA
Martin A. Boegelund.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:32:35 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You seem to thing this is a very bad thing. Do you have a better
> idea? Now FVWM, THAT's ugly!
Some of us prefer that sort of look. Some of us were happier when we
were using twm. And if you want out-and-out good-looking WMs, they
come much better than the pseudo-doze look...
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:38:57 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A nice interface seems to shallow the learning curve and improve
> productivity.
There are several ways of thinking about what a nice interface is.
Should it concentrate on making life easier for beginners? Should it
concentrate on making experts more productive? Should it look like a
graphic designer's wildest imaginings? You seem to be selecting for
only the first, and yet the other two are at least as valid of doing
things and do not fit very well with each other.
GUI design is not easy, but this isn't obvious to the inexperienced.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: What GUI development tools are there for Linux?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:44:21 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The problem with RISC-OS, however, is that compared to X[1] it is not very
> customisable, so if you don't like iot then tough.
Customisability carries a fairly heavy computational and resource
price, so it is entirely understandable if fairly limited systems like
the Arcs were not very good in that area.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
From: "Davorin Mestric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:50:35 +0200
no, it's a law. linvocates cause windows, event nt to crash, winvocates
cause linux stuff to crash. :)
no, really, it probably means that i always notice those things on
linux, and ignore then on windows.
"Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:01:46 +0200, Davorin Mestric wrote:
>
> This post is hilarious. You've obviously been taking lessons from the
guys
> who can get NT to crash 10 times a day, and applied those skills to
Linux (-;
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: What GUI development tools are there for Linux?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:45:17 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The problem with RISC-OS, however, is that compared to X[1] it is not very
> customisable, so if you don't like iot then tough.
Customisability carries a fairly heavy computational and resource
price, so it is entirely understandable if fairly limited systems like
the early Arcs were not very good in that area.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: Why Linux on the desktop?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 08:58:03 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
John W. Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
>> Algorithms (which terminate) and Reactive Systems
>> (which don't terminate, but which communicate a possibly infinite
>> number of times.) You could quite happily claim that "grep" is
>> algorithmic (should terminate given finite data) and an operating
>> system or network daemon is reactive (should always be able to do
>> something more.)
>
> Ok, so the taxonomic hierarchy might be better expressed as:
> Information --> Instruction --> Reactive Systems --> Algorithmic Systems
> ???
Not really. Reactive systems and algorithmic systems are really side
by side in the taxonomic hierarchy. Reactive systems use algorithmic
components, but the desired properties of one are quite distinct from
those of the other. The semantics of the two are quite different -
algorithms are expressable as a total function from inputs to outputs,
and RSs are described in terms of their communications behaviour or
infinite computation trees (the logics you use to reason about those
trees determines what sort of language equivalences are used.) IIRC,
reactive systems are related to communications theory...
> (Ok, so I still haven't come up with a good philosophical basis for a
> next-gen UI . . . but I'm having fun!)
:^)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our
borders. -- David Parsons <o r c @ p e l l . p o r t l a n d . o r . u s>
------------------------------
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