Linux-Advocacy Digest #586, Volume #26 Thu, 18 May 00 20:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Things Linux can't do! (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Steve)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Steve)
Re: HUMOR: CSMA has the Tholenbot... we should have the (Marty)
Re: Desktop use, office apps ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Linux lacks (Bones)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Top 10 Reasons to Use Windows NT (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Familiarity of Windows for Linux! (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Why Solaris is better than Linux (Fredrik)
RE: Question ("Raul Valero")
Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Victor Wagner)
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (Fredrik)
Re: a great job (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: HP-UX vs. Linux (Mike Lee)
Re: If you don't like Linux then just leave! (Fredrik)
Re: Here is the solution ("Daniel Johnson")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:05:37 GMT
"Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > http:\\www.freebsd.org
> ^^
> *snort*
>
> Donal.
> --
> Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -- I may seem more arrogant, but I think that's just because you didn't
> realize how arrogant I was before. :^)
> -- Jeffrey Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
HA HA!
Thanks!
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 19 May 2000 00:07:39 GMT
On Wed, 17 May 2000 14:39:01 GMT, martin wrote:
>On Tue, 16 May 2000 23:47:56 GMT, Mongoose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
>
>>Hello,
>> I am attempting to start a college project and have two of my
>>ideas already being worked on. So I wanted to know what other people
>>had for suggestions for linux projects? I was thinking of something
>>along the lines of a project that would help promote the use of linux.
>>What is something that most people could use? Something that could
>>make a good 1 year R&D project?
>
>How about an easy-to-use text editor ? (console, not GUI please :) ?
>One without a million complex commands, but with ability to select
>text with shift+arrow keys, like most dos/windows/os2-based editors
>do, F2 to save a file instead of Ctrl-x + Ctrl-s or something and
>those other features that are standard on other operating systems.
>
>Basically, a simple editor that doesn't need a 300-page tutorial.
>I can't find any of those in linux. Not for console anyway.
I'd second this, even Nedit doesn't fit the bill, what we want is just
Pico with the ability to copy and paste and cut with shift and arrow
keys, and F keys to do simple things like save, save as and exit etc.
--
Cheers
Steve email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee 0 pps.
web http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~sjlen/
or http://start.at/zero-pps
4:10pm up 1 day, 15 min, 3 users, load average: 1.26, 1.19, 1.09
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 19 May 2000 00:07:40 GMT
On 18 May 2000 06:20:59 GMT, Koos Pol wrote:
>On Wed, 17 May 2000 14:39:01 GMT, martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>|
>| How about an easy-to-use text editor ? (console, not GUI please :) ?
>| One without a million complex commands, but with ability to select
>| text with shift+arrow keys, like most dos/windows/os2-based editors
>| do, F2 to save a file instead of Ctrl-x + Ctrl-s or something and
>| those other features that are standard on other operating systems.
>|
>| Basically, a simple editor that doesn't need a 300-page tutorial.
>| I can't find any of those in linux. Not for console anyway.
>|
>|
>| --
>| Martin
>
>
>Oh yes you can! Try FTE. It does exactly all what you requested :-)
>http://fte.sourceforge.net/
>
It doesn't run in the xterm that you're currently in, and if I remember
it kept insisting on opening a window that was too big for the screen,
and changing the default colours was a nightmare, I gave up with it
in the end.
--
Cheers
Steve email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee 0 pps.
web http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~sjlen/
or http://start.at/zero-pps
4:10pm up 1 day, 15 min, 3 users, load average: 1.26, 1.19, 1.09
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: HUMOR: CSMA has the Tholenbot... we should have the
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:06:37 GMT
Gerban Bergmen wrote:
>
> Marty "RAT" Amodeo writes:
Having attribution problems, Gerban? Must be contagious. Witness Eric
Bennett's attribution problems.
> | > Thu, 18 May 2000 02:11:46 GMT was when a million monkeys took over Marty's
> | > computer and wrote:
> |
> | Still using made-up words,
>
> What alleged "made-up words", Marty (RAT)?
Why, the made-up words that you posted, Gerban. Still having trouble
understanding the rules of word formation in the English language?
> | eh Pascal?
>
> Typical invective.
How ironic.
> | > You're erroneously presupposing that I've posted from cable.a2000.nl before,
> | > Marty.
> |
> | Not at all, Pascal.
>
> Prove that I've posted from cable.a2000.nl before,
Unnecessary. The evidence is right in front of you. Open your eyes, Gerban.
> if you think you can, Marty
What I think I can do is irrelevant. What you have failed to prove is
relevant.
> (RAT).
Typical invective, the usual resort of one who lacks a logical argument.
> | > Reading comprehension problems?
> |
> | Obviously not.
>
> Your continued mixing me up with Pascal
You are erroneously presupposing that I have mixed you up with Pascal in the
first place, Pascal.
> is evidence of a reading comprehension problem on your part, Marty
You are erroneously presupposing that I have mixed you up with Pascal in the
first place, Pascal.
> (RAT).
Typical invective, the usual resort of one who lacks a logical argument.
> | How ironic of you to say so, however.
>
> There's nothing ironic about my pointing out your reading comprehension
> problems, Marty
On the contrary.
> (RAT).
Typical invective, the usual resort of one who lacks a logical argument.
> | > Yes, your erroneous claims are quite interesting.
> |
> | Non sequitur, as no erroneous claims were made by me.
>
> Incorrect, as I demonstrated above.
I see no demonstration by you above, other than a demonstration of your
illogic and use of invective.
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Desktop use, office apps
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:07:00 +0000
Jim Ross wrote:
> Tim Koklas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Now, that's the first time I hear someone claim that Word is crap. But
> > again ... equal alternatives?
>
> Exactly.
> Word runs very fast, opens most any document type, and has tons of features,
> and fonts look greeat
> It's very very hard to compete with.
> Word 97 is as nearly a perfect wordprocesor in my opinion.
> I wouldn't change a thing.
How well does it deal with mathematics?
>
>
> AbiWord seems to be going in the right direction, but is missing many things
> and fonts always seems bad in X. I'm sick of that at this point.
>
> Maybe in 3 years X with get anti-aliased and look normal for once.
> Oh and all Motif apps should go away fast. They looked sick before and sick
> now.
>
> Jim
>
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Word is an abomination. They should have quit in '94.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bones)
Subject: Re: Linux lacks
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:09:17 GMT
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
>> ax wrote:
>> Linux will be broken up by its own power fragmentation.
> Pray tell, what is "power fragmentation".
Generally speaking, its the net result of the collection of disk-management
functions which Windows executes from time to time. They are designed to
make sure that FAT filesystems constantly remain in a state of disarray, or
at least perform horribly regardless of their supposed advantage due to
simplicity.
These functions were the IP of MS, so after their divorce from IBM, the code
had to be removed from OS/2. Sadly, HPFS partitions don't have this extra
feature, and don't fragment nearly as quickly. Past PC-DOS users quickly
followed MS over to Windows, not wanting to feel that their yearly
investments spent on upgrading to the latest versions of Norton Utilities
were wasted.
Later (in 1995), MS pioneered the way in fragmentation technology by
implementing a growable, fragmentable virtual memory area on the same
filesystem as your binaries and data. The rest of the computing world will
probably never catch up with the breakneck pace of MS innovations.
(I reserve the right to make sh*t up, since it very popular in political
circles these days.)
----
Bones
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:09:38 GMT
ax wrote:
>
> "John Culleton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8g13c6$bq3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > There is every sound reason to believe that with the Breakup of
> > > > Microsoft,
> > > > Combined with the manpower of Linux, we see a sudden death of
> > Microsoft
> > > > OS by 2006.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's still a slow death of Microsoft in SIX YEARS compared to the
> > > cooling down of Linux hype in just SIX MONTHS.
> > >
> > > > There you go!
> > > >
> > > > Charlie
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Predictions of the death of either OS are premature. I expect Linux to
> > gradually expand its user base over the next six months, particularly in
> > Europe and particularly in the server market area. After all its growth
> > has been steady for several years.
>
> Charlie made his "prediction". I didn't make any "prediction".
> The cooling down of Linux hype is the current event already
> happened, not the predicted future event. Such cooling down
> is considered by many as healthy "correction".
>
> > As for Win 2000 I expect it or its descendents to be around for a while.
> > It will not be a failure like (in the hardware arena) IBM's microchannel
> > architecture.
> >
> > John Culleton
> > Please visit http://ccpl.carr.org/~john/
> > My Linux Slackware 2.2.15 system on
> > Thursday May 18 2000
> > 11:49am up 4 days, 13:24, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.04, 0.00
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
Oh boulder poop!
IBM unloading Redhat stock is not a cooling down in my opinion!
Microsoft is loosing it's shirt on the market as well!
It seems to me that the entire market, including IBM are taking
some corrections.
You could NOT make an honest observation that Linux is COOLING it's
heels
based on market observations anyway.
Linux DOES NOT run on the market! Redhat might.
But LINUX DON'T.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Top 10 Reasons to Use Windows NT
Date: 18 May 2000 18:01:51 -0500
In article <XDNU4.447$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Raul Valero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I know a lot of people getting "Network Administrador" jobs,
>just because they can install Mandrake ;-)
Good choice! I know a lot of network administrators that
have done a lot worse.
>And cp is not too
>different from 1981 DOS copy command, so do not think
>people using other OS's are stupid at all.
Except in DOS you had to know about XCOPY too.
> Hmmm, tar xvfz + ./configure + make + make install or rpm or dpkg
>or xrpm or ... aren't as difficult and geek oriented, let's face it.
Or, since you installed Mandrake above, you'll have KDE running
and can just click on the rpm to see it's description, then
push the install button on the kpackage that is automatically
started.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Familiarity of Windows for Linux!
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:12:40 GMT
"Arjan J. Molenaar" wrote:
>
> "Pete Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert) wrote in
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > >Run Suse 6.4 or Mandrake 7.0 and leave your computer on all day as I do.
> > >I never re-boot except for power outages.
> > >
> > >With Microsoft you have to re-boot.
> >
> > I would only Linux doesn't offer me what I want right now. Windows does...
> > though if Borland manage to release Kylix this year that may change.
Borland was always one of my favorites and IT'S COMMING!
>
> What do you need? A compiler, a drawing app, internet access and XBILL!
>
> Arjan
Tell me Linux isn't a smart move! Tell me that!
Charlie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:39:25 +0100
From: Fredrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Solaris is better than Linux
But they are Sunboxen.... oh, gotta have one, reminds me of Uni...shit,
I'm too sentimental...
ciao
Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> The Ghost In The Machine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>>Solaris on Sun hardware works.
> >>>
> >>>Linux on Intel hardware doesn't.
> >>>
> >>>Is there a need to say any more?
> >>
> >>Not when you can't even get that part right.
> >> Want some Sun parts that don't work?
> >
> >Would one of them be that port of Internet Explorer perchance? :-)
>
> I never got around to trying that. I had the wrong Solaris back
> when it would have cost a lot to upgrade, so the working Suns
> now have SparcLinux on them. I really don't have anything
> against Sun - these are just old boxes. But it is cheap and
> easy to do most of the same stuff with Intel/Linux these days.
>
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Raul Valero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Question
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:18:16 GMT
> > Thanks for your opinions. One thing, why should Microsoft be forced
> >to sell Office apart when Corel includes Corel Office at Corel Linux ?
>
> Corel doesn't OWN the OS. They're just another VAR, like Compaq
> or eMachines...
> They're not a monopoly player of any kind either.
Anyway, Microsoft would not be Linux owner.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:33:45 -0500
Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Both the OS and Office implementation of OLE were seperate?
> >
> > OLE was introduced as part of the OS in 1992, it was NEVER an office
only
> > solution.
>
> OLE officially used by MS prior to 1992 and it was an office only
> solution. The Apps group invented OLE for their exclusive use.
Are you talking about OLE1? Christ, that was just a DDE trick. It wasn't
part of the OS per se, though it was documented.
> WHEN OLE was added to the OS MS said the correct defintion and
> documentation on how OLE worked was defined by their Office
> implementation.
And your proof of this is what?
> > I fail to see how access to undocumented API's would help a designer.
>
> Yet you'll argue undocumented APIs do not exist.
I argue no such thing, and I have said so many times. Undocumented API's DO
exist.
What has not been proven is that current MS applications use them.
> > No, it's not. For the n-teenth time. He states that Windows is a
better OS
> > because of the interaction with the Office teams, not that Office is a
> > better Office suite because of it.
>
> No Eric. MS ALSO says Office is a better Office suite "becasue of it".
You have not quoted anythings that says that.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Victor Wagner)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 18 May 2000 09:50:55 +0400
In comp.os.linux.misc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: Mongoose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
:> I was thinking, maybe not just servers and stuff, but an application
:> that windows users have but linux doesn't. Something that would give
:> windows users more of an incentive to move to linux, or help them
:> migrate to linux.
: The way I see it, Linux needs the following, at minimum, before it can
: be a legitimate competitor to Windows:
: 1. A streamlined, easy install process;
Disagree. System should be installed by competent techinicans in
computer shops. Windows is not any more easy to install than say
Mandrake 7.0, only user do it much more frequently, so get used to it.
: 2. An office suite roughly as functional as Office, and at least as
: easy to use;
But based on quite diferent ideas - it shouldn't be so bloated and
should have ability to use its components in scripts, and add own
components written as simple scripts or C programs to common GUI.
: 3. A GUI package installation mechanism that's as easy to use as
: InstallShield (trivial if we get a file manager for GNOME or KDE); and
Whats wrong with capt?
: 4. A GUI interface to the most common configuration files.
Never, never, never let user who doesn't understand things tweak the
config files. For such users remote sysadmin service via SSH should be
provided.
: In order to beat Windows, client-side, we need:
: 1. A GUI interface to *all* configuration files;
I've expressed my opinion above. I'd prefer something like expert system
- somethig which allows to ask question on natural language, and answer
with extracts of man and howto. NO GUI - interface just like micq, but
much more interactivity than stupid office equipment in MS Office
2000.
: 2. Integration of all Linux documentation into a centralized,
: searchable help center;
Whats wrong with dwww?
: 3. A DirectX-like platform for hardware-accelerated devices, not
: necessarily at the kernel level;
Whats wrong with OpenGL?
: 4. Abstraction of many protocols and features, ala ODBC (which I hate
: because it never works, not because it's a bad idea); and
Whats wrong with
1. ODBC?
2. DBI/DBD?
: 4. A "killer app." Unfortately, the odds of this being in the office
: suite are about zero, as MS has far too much of an edge on this
: front. The GIMP, with a few unique features, may have the
: potential to get there.
Given Adobe PhotoShop for Linux coming in half a year?
No, if apache is not killer app, you'll have to invent totally new way
of using computers.
But I can give you an idea - some canvas which can be used just is
people use a piece of page - write text, write formulas (and they will
be calculated), draw graphs (and they will be aproximated by formula),
draw arbitrary drawing, and replace hand-drawn objects with exact
gometry shape if desired.
and all the thing could be converted to well-enough printable form (no
better quality than Word gives) with few mouse clicks.
Most people would say, hey, this is Word, Excel and MathCad in one
window, becouse they don't really need neither Word, nor Excel, nor
MathCad - they need to write simple text, compute simple expressions and
draw simple graphs. Now MS give them feature-bloated programs, most of
features of which they never learn, but they consume their hard disk
space but no professional would use them becouse of poor output quality,
and OpenSource gives them Lisp and TeX and Emacs, which require
considerable learning to do anything at all, although if you spend
enough time learning, you get quality output.
: Linux has survived largely because its only real competitor,
: reliability- and performance-wise, was NT, which few "regular" people
: liked because it runs about as many Windows programs as Linux. But
: with Windows 2000 out, suddenly the "mainstream" Windows is comparably
: stable and feature-laden. I think that, unless Linux starts playing
: catch-up in a big way, we're going to be relegated to the niche market
: we've been, until recently, exclusively a part of.
: I suppose that now I'm going to have to get Linux running again so I
: can put my programming hours where my mouth is. (Reason I'm not using
: it now? The fucking Aureal Vortex 2 drivers are (a) non-free; and (b)
: unusably poor.)
: --
: Eric P. McCoy ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
: non-combatant, n. A dead Quaker.
: - Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
--
Даже созвездия не являются свободными ассоциациями звезд.
--- С.Е. Лец
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:48:38 +0100
From: Fredrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
THe Solitare Cards DO look nice in Windows!! Unless Linux cancome up
with something similar, it will never take of the desktop.. SOlitare,
the ultimate Windows Killer app... *sigh*
Well, seriously, X can't proper anti-aliasing yet. Suppose it will get
there in the end... But I never really understand why people care so
much.. it's not THAT increadible big difference... Hmmm, maybe it's just
my monitor that's dodgy and blurry... Hey, built in antialiasing in the
monitor! Hardcore!
cheers
Matt Gaia wrote:
>
> Hmmm....you actually try to base a Linux experience with your experience
> with StarOffice *troll detector starts going off*? First off, if you even
> try to do this, you should have any copy of Linux/Unix/etc... taken off
> your hands and returned to the store _immediately_. Secondly, you use how
> the fonts look to base your thoughts on it. Um, no. That's like saying
> that Windows is nice because you like the pattern on the cards on
> Solitare. But I'm just going to stop there, since I'll probably be
> beating a dead horse. :)
> Matt
>
> <<snipped meaningless FUD>>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: a great job
Date: 18 May 2000 18:27:45 -0500
In article <39246b91$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Francis Van Aeken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Come to think of it, can you name ONE way in which Microsoft has made the
>> world of computing better? I would say that he made the personal computer
>> more accessible to the average dummy with his "easy to use" Windows 9X
>> interface. That's one way. I really can't think of any other ways in
>> which Microsoft has benefitted us.
>
>They, together with Intel, brought computing to the masses.
No, that was Apple, and Tandy/Radio Shack who put them in
stores on every corner. Then IBM who later gave them a respectable
name.
>They brought us
>cheap computers and cheap software.
OK, that can be their claim to fame.
>Computer no longer is a dirty word
Except to the people who have to keep them working.
>and computer specialists are in high demand.
Because the machines running MS software need constant attention.
>In many ways, Microsoft
>paved the way for newer and even cheaper operating systems like Linux.
>Bill Gates did a great job.
It is going to be tough to compete on the cheapness front with
free stuff.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: HP-UX vs. Linux
Date: 18 May 2000 23:22:16 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
|
| HTTP is a stateless protocol and thus ripe for loose clustering.
It is mostly stateless. Form submissions, for example, can alter state.
mikey
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:52:11 +0100
From: Fredrik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: If you don't like Linux then just leave!
Doesnt' cmdTaco or one of the others of slashdot do it??? THey had a
serie running about Linux and music sequensing, etc, etc there a while
ago
Tim Kelley wrote:
>
> JoeX1029 wrote:
> >
> > All the WinTrolls complain about how hard it is, how cryptic etc... A
>
> Most likely the "wintrolls" are really just one person, Steve,
> Heather, Syphon, et. al. Then there is the comna crowd, which
> answer all the trolls' crossposts.
>
> Notice the same wintroll keeps talking about music production on
> linux and how pathetic it is. how many people would try to use
> linux for that at this point?
>
> --
>
> Tim Kelley
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Here is the solution
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:34:03 GMT
"Joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
[snip]
> > Actually, MS quite frequently makes its APIs available
> > separately from the OS.
>
> No they don't and they are arguing they should integrate more APIs into
> the OS.
Sure they do. ODBC, DirectX, OLE. Wheredyathink "DLL Hell"
comes from?
> > This may be a good or a bad
> > thing, but it is nevertheless true- you can often install
> > MS's new APIs in old versions of their OS.
>
> You can often find MS's new APIs do NOT in stall on older OSs which is
> why MS tells customers to upgrade to the newest OS.
Ah, would that they would do that. It'd be more stable.
> > Sometimes you can install them in entirely different
> > OSes, even. It's been known to happen.
>
> "It's been known to happen" is a phrase used to describe unlikely
> events.
This one only happened once, that I know of.
MS ported OLE to the Mac.
> > *If* this is true it puts MS's apps divisions at a
> > disadvantage!
>
> No sir. At WORSE MS puts the apps group on level groud.
Well, would you settle for "relatively worse of compared
to where they'd be if they *didn't* move app code
into the OS and expose it?"
> > It means that whenever MS-apps
> > comes up with something good, MS-OS makes
> > it available to all of MS-apps competitors.
>
> EVENUTALLY and ONLY if MS thinks they have more to gain than lose.
Of course. You were expecting charity?
> > The Office
> > team *cannot* be happy with that; they do all the work
> > and Corel or whomever gets to reap the benefits.
>
> 1) The Apps group is not OBLIGATED to share all technology.
They wouldn't be obligated to share *any* if Chairman Bill
wasn't making them.
> 2) Establishing a standard you have mastered puts you at an advantage.
Implementing them in Office in the first place puts them at
an advantages, but innovation will do that to you.
Making 'standards' of them reduces that advantage.
> > You know MS's competitors don't do that; since MS
> > does not own then, it can't make them turn over their
> > code this way.
>
> I wasn't aware MS asked to help LOTUS establish NOTES as the de facto
> standard over MS Exchange.
I wasn't aware Lotus had offered to put Notes technology in the
OS, or to in any other way make it available to non-Notes users.
That *is* the crime your accusing Microsoft of, is it not?
> > > Only the owner the Os can decide
> > > so the fact the Apps divison gets special treatment
> > > is EVERYTHING.
> >
> > Specially *bad* treatment. This is one reason I find this
> > implausible.
>
> MS argues the interaction is a benefit. You can say the interaction is
> bad but you can als
It is a benefit to Microsoft's OS products, certainly. MS seems
to see *that* as the priority.
[snip]
> > > Better yet we'll take a test and prove I'm smarter
> > > than you - I write the test.
> >
> > :D
> >
> > But you also give me the answers, right?
>
> If I decided to but only after you finish the test.
:D
> > > OLE helped PPoint beat Harvard Graphics. later OLE
> > > was opened up for ISVs like VISIO to wriwe add-ins
> > > for Office.
> >
> > Okay. Now, what you are saying is that since OLE is an Office
> > technology, it *should not* have been made part of the OS;
> > so the technology *should* have remained Office-only
> > and VISIO should not have been permitted to write add
> > ins.
>
> Don't rephrase what I say.
Why not? You've certainly been free with rephrasing
what Microsoft says.
But at least I had the decency to phrase it as a question,
rather than just attributing this nonsense to you.
> Only VISIO had access to MS's OLE experts and they got this access after
> agreeing to build a VISIO app that worked with Office.
Now this isn't so; Microsoft made the OLE interface publicly available;
they may *also* have contracted with Visio for applets, but Visio
is not and was not the only guys with access to OLE.
[snip]
> > Cuz it sure doesn't seem like making an Office technology
> > available to all is this horrible anticompetitive thing.
>
> It is your obligation to think clearly. I'm not put at any disadvantage
> when you rephrease the meaning of an arguement and make up dumb
> possibilites.
Well, you are if you let me get away with it. :D
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