Linux-Advocacy Digest #491, Volume #26 Sat, 13 May 00 17:13:04 EDT
Contents:
M$ and C2 (Nico Coetzee)
Re: An honest attempt (abraxas)
Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation' (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: An honest attempt (abraxas)
Re: An honest attempt (Pete Goodwin)
RE: pre-kernels ("Alberto Trillo")
Re: Things Linux can't do! (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software (Karel Jansens)
Re: Microsoft must die! ("As If")
Re: What's the difference between.... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: What's the difference between.... (abraxas)
Re: Microsoft must die! (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: An honest attempt (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation' (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (JEDIDIAH)
Re: What's the difference between.... (Mig Mig)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:17:33 +0200
From: Nico Coetzee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: M$ and C2
Apparently M$ has some C2 demonstration on Command and Control Systems.
Question : Can Linux match this demonstration? Is there currently these
kind of software available (Command and Control)?
Just wondering....
I saved the original msg at : http://nicc777.tripod.com/luc/news (news
is the file name - no extension )
Cheers...
--
=========================================================
This signature was added automatically by Linux:
.
If you want to see card tricks, you have to expect to take cards.
-- Harry Blackstone
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
Date: 13 May 2000 19:14:22 GMT
Bobby D. Bryant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> abraxas wrote:
>> I dont care about converts actually...
> That's fine, but there's no need to insult total strangers just because they ask a
> question.
Theres no need to come to a linux advocacy group to whine about one's own shortcomings
either, eh?
>> I would much rather people find and learn all about linux on their own
>> without the apparantly requisite hand-holding and emotional support.
> And I would like to live in a world where everyone looked out for the common good as
> much as they do for their own... but it ain't gonna happen. Ideals are fine, but
> they shouldn't be confused with reality.
I do not treat strangers like children. If they cannot deal with difficult things
without collapsing into their own emotional psychodramas, let them collapse.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation'
Date: 13 May 2000 14:10:38 -0500
In article <8fj6cd$7ja$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>What you have to keep in mind is that Linux is not designed for high
>uptimes, so this is an unfair comparison.
Yet there is nothing about Linux that precludes high uptimes.
>Linux is developed under
>the "bazaar" model of develeopment which requires that developers
>release software before verifying its correctness.
This is a 'big picture' observation and only partly correct. These
releases are equivalent to what a commercial company would internally
give to a quality assurance department before public release.
However no company can afford to test to the extent that a Linux
kernel is tested in a few weeks of public use.
>In order to maintain
>a stable Linux system you have to constantly apply patches, analyze
>kernel panics and core dumps, and reboot the system.
This is exactly backwards. For a stable Linux system you pick a
well-tested version and leave it alone until another version
has proven itself to be better. There are still plenty of systems
chugging along on 2.0.36.
>It is OK for
>casual home use, but not for installations where reliability is
>required.
You get the best of both situations. For home/desktop use it is
nice to have access to the cutting-edge code, latest device drivers,
etc. This obviously won't be heavily tested but having to do
an update/reboot on a personal machine isn't a disaster either.
For servers and other critical machines you just use something
that has survived testing or that has been put together by
other people with reliability in mind - like the VALinux distribution.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
Date: 13 May 2000 19:25:18 GMT
Clifford W. Racz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "abraxas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8fhg5u$v7s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > Unless a time effective solution can be found for us, you advocates on
>> > comp.os.linux.advocacy have failed to convert me. But, hey, at least I
> only
>> > spent $25 to buy a Linux box set (I downloaded Corel for free).
>>
>> Why do you think that it is anyone's intention on this newsgroup to
> convert
>> *you*?
>>
> I don't know. I guess I thought that on comp.os.linux.advocacy you would
> try to advocate Linux and I typically think of this as bringing people to
> use Linux who use Mac OS or Windows, since they have many more users. I
> didn't think the purpose of the newsgroup was to flame people needlessly.
> Your post isn't funny, nor entertaining... just plain mean.
Welcome to *.advocacy.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:34:10 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mlw) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>It is a problem, but it is a problem with the distribution of the OS.
>Take my word for it, getting an empty clone and a Windows 98 CD can be
>just as hard as Linux (Harder actually) if you have one or more cards
>for which the OEM's did not pay MS in include their drivers.
Really? You have a very different experience of Windows than me. I found
Linux a tricky package to install, whilst Windows had no problems at all.
>As for saving time. I find Linux takes up less time in the long run than
>does Windows. Have you ever added up the amount of time is lost on
>reboots, reinstalling, and lost data? Yes, sometimes setting up
>something on Linux takes a bit longer, but I can sit in front of my
>computer and DO something.
Linux takes me longer as I'm unfamiliar with anything to do with
configuration. Since there's no central place for everything, setting
things up takes a while.
>If it was, indeed, an honest attempt, switching from Windows to Linux is
>like quitting smoking. It takes work and your habits are pulling you
>back. I guarantee that if you give it two months, cold turkey, you will
>never go back to Windows, this is what MS fears most.
I don't think MS has much to worry about just yet. The dist's still have a
way to go yet with ease of use.
Pete
------------------------------
From: "Alberto Trillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: pre-kernels
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:34:28 GMT
> Any thoughts?
If no one test that kernels, bugs are not found, suggestions are not done
and improvements are not made. Testing unstable kernels is almost a
duty for every GPL supporter. If you do not translate, program, advocate
or the so, at least, you can help testing. In fact, a lot of GNU/Linux
software
is beta and doesn't it work well ? What's more, I found that unstable
kernels
use to be much faster and stable the "stable" ones (a couple of cases
apart).
As an example, the petalo.c that crashed 2.0.x and caused 2.2.x to reboot,
did not make so with 2.3.x (unstable one).
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: 13 May 2000 14:41:27 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Lets say the "Cancer cure" is sticking a Pineapple up your arse,
>painful but effective, This would be the Linux version, cost minimal.
>
>Lets say someone (MS) develops a different cure, and charges you $100
>for a Pineapple fruit juice in a convenient go anywhere pack with a
>drinking straw.
>
>Which would you choose ?
>
For something important like that I would choose the one that I trust
to work. I would stay away from a company that had caused a lot
of problems in my experience no matter how slickly packaged
heavily promoted their version of the same thing might be.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software
Date: 13 May 2000 20:53:56 GMT
Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> DOS versions can be tested without this rouge code.
^^^^^
With some campy version of the compiler?
(relax, I know it's a typo. But I can't let good ones pass; it's a
hobby)
Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
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------------------------------
From: "As If" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft must die!
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:00:01 GMT
"Jimmy Navarro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> it's back to 1024x768 24bpp resolution. I do used NTs but everytime I see
> the blue screen with hex values all over the screen and /CRASHDEBUG
> without any prompt it's more disgusting. Microsoft do give away their
> patches but always with disclaimer... :-(
>
The only times I ever have gotten the blue screen are:
a) overclocking my box and running too hot - pushing the hardware where it's
not supposed to go
b) using crappy 3rd party hardware drivers.
Microsoft isn't to blame for 99% of the NT blue screens out there; it's the
junk that passes for OEM hardware drivers.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: What's the difference between....
Date: 13 May 2000 15:02:43 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Full Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>The other is a forum in which people promote an operating system which
>>was created out of need and shared due to a sense of public good.
>
>Excuse me while I grab a bucket and throw up.
>I find it very hard to believe the majority of Linux advocates
>actually have jobs in IT support.
>
>Real Linux experiences:
>
>You'll have to delete Red Hat and install Mandrake - central computing
>receives CERT security alerts about Red Hat on a weekly basis.
What century was that? The only CERT alert I've seen recently
was about having any version of Outlook in your organization.
Even so, RedHat always responded to the alerts with an
immediate update rpm which is much better than not knowing
about problems.
>Sorry, I can't find a (bug free) Linux driver for the PCMCIA card in
>your new notebook. We've ordered another card but it won't be here
>until next week. We hope the new card will work.
I have hardware that won't work with NT too. In fact I have
a modem that makes Win95 crash the machine even though it is
supposed to be jumpered to keep plug-n-play disabled. Of course
it works fine with DOS and Linux.
>Lost a file? Sorry Mandrake NFS doesn't work and we couldn't backup
>your home directory.
Doing backups over nfs borders on insanity, but if you want a
working NFS, put in H.J. Lu's patches or install VALinux
which will have them already installed.
>You want to use ftp? Sorry, Mandrake disables ftp as it transmits
>passwords in clear text and this is not secure enough.
This was your choice during the install and trivial to change.
>No, you can't run any long jobs yet, we have to take the system down
>and build a kernel that might work properly.
Huh? The Mandrake modular kernel works properly. Or if you need
cross-platform NFS it should work with the patches. I'm too lazy
to fix Mandrake when VA's version works as-is.
>You want to put a Linux box on your NT only subnet? Sorry, we'll have
>to firewall it first. Linux knows nothing about non-routable
>protocols.
What does that mean? If you want a non-routed subnet, use private
IP addresses that your routers don't know about. There is no
need to use a less robust protocol. I'm not sure why anyone
would do this as opposed to explict packet filtering at the
routers, but it will work.
>You want to put a Mandrake box in a public terminal room? Sorry,
>someone only has to type ctr-alt-delete at the console and boot with
>the -s option and put in a couple of backdoors. With a bit of
>preparation this takes about 3 minutes. They now have a nice platform
>from which to attack other machines.
What happens with ctl-alt-delete isn't black magic like some other
platforms. Look at /etc/inittab where you control other similar
operations. If you are building a secure public terminal room it
might be a good idea to learn a few basics that you wouldn't need
otherwise.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: What's the difference between....
Date: 13 May 2000 20:15:59 GMT
Full Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 May 2000 09:07:27 -0400, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>The other is a forum in which people promote an operating system which
>>was created out of need and shared due to a sense of public good.
>>
> Excuse me while I grab a bucket and throw up.
> I find it very hard to believe the majority of Linux advocates
> actually have jobs in IT support.
The majority of linux advocates I daresay would laugh in your face
if you offered them a job in IT support, being very highly
overqualified. (I know I would)
In most companies, the IT department is held in about the same
regard as sales by engineering.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Microsoft must die!
Date: 13 May 2000 15:14:16 -0500
In article <5viT4.64421$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
As If <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Jimmy Navarro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> it's back to 1024x768 24bpp resolution. I do used NTs but everytime I see
>> the blue screen with hex values all over the screen and /CRASHDEBUG
>> without any prompt it's more disgusting. Microsoft do give away their
>> patches but always with disclaimer... :-(
>>
>
>The only times I ever have gotten the blue screen are:
>
>a) overclocking my box and running too hot - pushing the hardware where it's
>not supposed to go
>
>b) using crappy 3rd party hardware drivers.
>
>Microsoft isn't to blame for 99% of the NT blue screens out there; it's the
>junk that passes for OEM hardware drivers.
>
Maybe, as of sp6a, but it has been a long and painful trip. I find it
hard to believe that anyone could keep an NT box doing any amount
of work running for more than a couple of weeks before service
pack 3. Up until sp6a we had an application (not device driver)
error that would regularly lock up the OS.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:29:52 GMT
On Sat, 13 May 2000 19:34:10 GMT, Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mlw) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>It is a problem, but it is a problem with the distribution of the OS.
>>Take my word for it, getting an empty clone and a Windows 98 CD can be
>>just as hard as Linux (Harder actually) if you have one or more cards
>>for which the OEM's did not pay MS in include their drivers.
>
>Really? You have a very different experience of Windows than me. I found
>Linux a tricky package to install, whilst Windows had no problems at all.
There's a wide world of PC hardware out there, much of it of
questionable pedigree. There's more than room there for quite
a bit of hardware to be difficult to impossible with Win98.
OTOH, it doesn't really have to be 'difficult' really, just
difficult from the perspective of a relative novice.
In this respect, WinDOS still really isn't that much different
than Linux when it comes to installation on a PC.
>
>>As for saving time. I find Linux takes up less time in the long run than
>>does Windows. Have you ever added up the amount of time is lost on
>>reboots, reinstalling, and lost data? Yes, sometimes setting up
>>something on Linux takes a bit longer, but I can sit in front of my
>>computer and DO something.
>
>Linux takes me longer as I'm unfamiliar with anything to do with
>configuration. Since there's no central place for everything, setting
>things up takes a while.
Actually, unix configuration is much more centralized than
you make it out to be. This is especially true these days
with the various shiny happy gui tools.
>
>>If it was, indeed, an honest attempt, switching from Windows to Linux is
>>like quitting smoking. It takes work and your habits are pulling you
>>back. I guarantee that if you give it two months, cold turkey, you will
>>never go back to Windows, this is what MS fears most.
>
>I don't think MS has much to worry about just yet. The dist's still have a
>way to go yet with ease of use.
Yet, despite that, Linux continues to grow by leaps and bounds
even undermining some of Microsoft's paying buisiness.
Besides, the relative complexity of DOS didn't kill it sufficiently
to make this whole argument moot (as the market really should have
done).
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation'
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:32:33 GMT
On Sat, 13 May 2000 08:49:54 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) wrote:
>
>> Just remember to keep your licences all paid up. <snicker>
>
>Many companies are willing to pay for the extra level of reliability
>that comes with VMS rather than try to make do with Linux. The SEC
Oh really?
'Many' certainly seems to be getting and smaller these days.
BTW, letting your licenses run out is one extra 'reliability'
issue that Unix doesn't tend to expose you any more.
[deletia]
It's one thing to comment on VMS robustness, it'squite another
to grossly misrepresent the state of it's market.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:42:08 GMT
On Sat, 13 May 2000 13:47:14 +1000, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 May 2000 16:08:59 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>
>>> Always been ??
>>>
>>> Linux is only 10 years old and only came out of the geek closet three
>>> years ago.
>>>
>>> I have T shirts older then that.
>>>
>>> Sam.
>>
>>
>> Besides showing your lack of wardrobe, what the hell does this post
>>accomplish? So it's only ten years old, how does this disprove the claim that
>>it always has been....? In otherwords, your post is a strawman.
>
>Do I have to explain it ?
>
>The original poster said
>
>"The whole point of Linux has always been that it doesn't need to be
>a business at all in order to be sustainable"
>
>My point, is that it is not yet clear that it is sustainable (in the
>big picture sense) and it's history is too short to prove anything.
You have no conception whatsoever of the 'big picture'. Your
view of things is limited and myopic at best. GNU has already
proven itself as sustainable even without considering the recent
Linux hype.
>
>With the current decline in tech stocks corporate money may stop going
>into Linux as no-one has found a "sound business model"
>
>100 geeks coding Linux do not make a profitable endeavour.
That's not the point. Never has been.
If you think it is then you demonstrate just how little you understand.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:43:53 GMT
On Sat, 13 May 2000 10:15:10 GMT, Full Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 May 2000 18:51:33 +1000, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>OK, I can play this game.
>>
>>Let me give you a better example.
>>
>>Lets say the "Cancer cure" is sticking a Pineapple up your arse,
>>painful but effective, This would be the Linux version, cost minimal.
>>
>>Lets say someone (MS) develops a different cure, and charges you $100
>>for a Pineapple fruit juice in a convenient go anywhere pack with a
>>drinking straw.
>>
>>Which would you choose ?
>>
>>Sam
>>
>>
>
>LOL!!
>
>We decided to put Linux on a Dell notebook about a month ago. It's
>still not networked. The local Linux experts have ordered another
>PCMCIA net card for it. The funny thing is that the supplied card was
>specifically chosen to be Linux friendly.
So? I tried the first card that stated on the box that it
had Linux support. It works like a charm.
My anecodote nullfies your anecdote.
[deletia]
This was on a 486 Thinkpad btw.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:45:52 GMT
On Sun, 14 May 2000 01:10:04 +1000, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 May 2000 15:23:34 +0200, Julius Apweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>>ax wrote:
>>>
>>> Is this an "American Dream"?
>>Maybe more like a "Global Dream"? This is one WORLD, not one America.
>>
>>>
>>> No mather how much you dislike Bill Gates, he is still your American pride,
>>> but Linus is not.
>
>>I wouldn't be proud of Bill Gates. All he ever was good at was deceiving
>>(or, to put it that way, screwing) people and making money from that.
>
>Now that Larry Elison is richer then Bill why aren't you angry at him?
Mebbe he hasn't had an Oracle database coredump on him lately...
[deletia]
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the difference between....
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:10:17 +0200
Dont thow up on yourself David.
Maybe you actually should install a distro and discover the nonsens you
wrote below.
Full Name wrote:
> Excuse me while I grab a bucket and throw up.
>
> I find it very hard to believe the majority of Linux advocates
> actually have jobs in IT support.
>
> Real Linux experiences:
>
> You'll have to delete Red Hat and install Mandrake - central computing
> receives CERT security alerts about Red Hat on a weekly basis.
>
> Sorry, I can't find a (bug free) Linux driver for the PCMCIA card in
> your new notebook. We've ordered another card but it won't be here
> until next week. We hope the new card will work.
>
> Lost a file? Sorry Mandrake NFS doesn't work and we couldn't backup
> your home directory.
>
> You want to use ftp? Sorry, Mandrake disables ftp as it transmits
> passwords in clear text and this is not secure enough.
>
> No, you can't run any long jobs yet, we have to take the system down
> and build a kernel that might work properly.
>
> You want to put a Linux box on your NT only subnet? Sorry, we'll have
> to firewall it first. Linux knows nothing about non-routable
> protocols.
>
> You want to put a Mandrake box in a public terminal room? Sorry,
> someone only has to type ctr-alt-delete at the console and boot with
> the -s option and put in a couple of backdoors. With a bit of
> preparation this takes about 3 minutes. They now have a nice platform
> from which to attack other machines.
>
------------------------------
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