Linux-Advocacy Digest #343, Volume #27 Mon, 26 Jun 00 05:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about. (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: LILO problems -- Any suggestions? ("Adam Weaver")
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: slashdot (Jeff Szarka)
Re: slashdot (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS? (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS? (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS? (Jeff Szarka)
Re: stability of culture of helpfulness (Jim Marshall)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:25:47 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 03:05:39 GMT, R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Time to eat another WinTroll :-) (yum yum).
> >
> >I've taken the liberty of correcting some of the
> >spelling and grammer of the original post.
> >> 6. The CLI can multitask and network.
> >>
> >> ...which still doesn't make it any more usefull than DOS.
> >
> >It always amused me how people would claim that MS-DOS didn't need
> >multitasking, but would then insist that they had to have support
> >for their favorite TSRs such as Borland Sidekick. A TSR is
> >essentially multitasking. You have lousy memory management, rotten
> >scheduling, and you have to compete with peripherals for interrupts,
> >but it's still multitasking.
>
> Come back to the '00s. With Windows,
> there's no use for DOS multitasking.
But you still need Windows multitasking. You can't manage all the
various servers without going to the GUI. This makes scripted
administration nearly impossible. That raises the cost of the
administration crew, and increases difficulty of proper maintainance.
> >> Multitasking is only usefull to normal
> >> people in a GUI, which is why DOS doesn't do it.
Which now means that I must have qualified people physically present
to access and manage the system. This is a big problem if the user
needs real help.
> >> 7. It gives you "choice"
> >> ...between one crappy program and 50 others just like it.
> >
> >You might have a bit of a case here. One could argue that some
> >of the programs are just a bit too trivial. On the other hand,
> >when you want to make the same change to 5000 files, an "ed script"
> >can really fit the bill and do the job in about 2 minutes (compared
> >to about 2 months with notepad, wordpad, or word).
> >Linux has 4 office suites (5 if you count Andrew UIS), in addition
> >to 5 spreadsheets, 10 frame oriented WYSIWYG word processors, 4
> >photograph editors, 7 drawing toolkits, 4 presentation packages,
>
> ...and 0 applications as good as there Microsoft equivillants
You are still trying to live in the Microsoft paradigm. With Linux,
each application is modular and can be combined with numerous other
modules. This is due to the way Linux effectively manages multiple
processes (eliminating the need for a Monolithic Link).
With Microsoft, there is too much performance overhead to using
multiple processes, which means that you have to hard link every
component into a single monolithic application. Even when you use
DCOM, you still have to invoke the DCOM objects using COM references to
the library module.
Those "dirty little scripting languages" give you some amazing
power when managing large quantities of information.
Sure, Microsoft Office is great if your primary goal is to
print the document, fax it to the recipient, and hope it get's
lost before the lawyers try to bring it up in court.
But when you are trying to manage the work of 100,000 document
creators, manage documents to cover 7-10 year statute of limititions
requirements, you have a little problem. Microsoft doesn't design
their applications to manage that kind of archive.
UNIX and Linux on the other hand were used as typesetting systems
starting in the early 1980s, and were used for archiving research
papers as early as 1978. The search engines used by the web were
originally developed by Brewster Kahle, Paul Duehring, and the
others at Thinking Machines - developers of the first massively
parallel computers with over 1000 processors. Microsoft is bragging
that it can limp along with 8 SMP processors, while UNIX and Linux
have MPI and PVM capaabilities that can exploit thousands of concurrent
processors.
> >> They would never give up all that
> >
> >They will use what comes with the computer. If the OEMs came out
> >with a machine that booted Linux, came with a full suite of
> >preconfigured Linux applications, and published documents that could
> >be read and generated by either Microsoft Office or a low-cost
> >application, there would be a percentage of the market that would
> >choose Linux over Windows. The question is merely what percentage?
>
> Not a large one.
That remains to be seen. In the Server environment, where the
administrator has to configure either machine, Linux and UNIX
are the top choices. Linux and BSD make up over half the server
market and about 65% of the Internet Server market.
How many people would choose a system that's faster, more reliable,
more flexible, has more applications, comes with it's own support
system, and can be FIXED by a guy you can call over the telephone
(or in a chat room).
> >One thing is for sure, the percentage would be higher than it would
> >be in a market in which Microsoft is allowed to exclude Linux and
> >UNIX variants through the use of exclusive clauses forbidding the
> >alteration of the boot sequence, forbidding ports of USB, DVD-CSS,
> >and PCI PnP to Linux, and forbidding the inclusion of Linux on
> >a separate partition.
> >
> >The percentage would certainly be higher if people could walk
> >into Sears, K-mart, Radio Shack, Circuit City, or CompUSA and
> >have a hands-on experience with a fully functional, fully configured
> >Linux system.
> >
> >What is truly astonishing is that nearly 5% of the user base has
> >not only obtained copies of Linux CD-ROMs, installed them on their
> >machines with minimal assistance (typically one 10 minute phone
call),
> >configured dual-boot environments, and routinely boot Linux as their
> >operating system of choice.
> >
> >What is more amazing is that nearly 1% have reached the point where
> >Linux is their PRIMARY operating system, either not using Windows at
> >all or using WINE to provide windows emulation required for older
> >windows-only programs.
> >
> >What makes the latter particularly funny is that Linux does a better
> >job of emulating MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, and Windows 95 than
> >Windows NT 4.0 does. Furthermore, Linux can read NTFS, FAT32, E2FS,
> >and FAT, as well as NFS, IPX, and SMB remote filesystems from a
> >single operating system. I don't think even Windows 2000 can do
> >that out of the box.
> >
> >> just to run Linux and its shitty little beta-test apps
> >
> >Some of the apps really are pretty rough. Most however are actually
> >remarkably high quality and simply lack the multimillion-dollar
budgets
> >required to advertize, market, and finance inventory and flooring
for
> >hundreds of itty-bitty-little 8"x10"x2" boxes. After all, there are
> >about 1600 packages with an average of 20 programs per package. If
> >you tried to floor all 30,000 of them, you'd need about $60 billion
> >dollars.
[snip]
I can't believe reposted my 10 page document with only about
20 lines of original input.
Thanks for the extra "air time". :-)
> >--
> >Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
> >I/T Architect, MIS Director
> >http://www.open4success.com
> >Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
> >and growing at over 5%/month!
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
>
>
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Adam Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: LILO problems -- Any suggestions?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:41:04 -0400
Been there done that it sux
did u try:
fdisk /mbr
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:35:35 GMT
In article <yuz55.2642$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Did someone promise you that every aspect of Linux would be better
than
> Windows? Why do you keep complaining to this list about you're
Mandrake
> problems? Go complain to Mandrake.
Um, no I don't expect every aspect of Linux would be better than Windows
(actually, I expected Linux to be worse than Windows in most respects),
however, I would have thought that something as fundamental as
_upgrades_ ought to surpass Windows! That is, of course, if it was true
that Linux is "overtaking Windows" or "better than Windows" that many
times Linux advocates have ranted at me.
> Did you pay for your copy of Mandrake?
The first copy was the deluxe version and cost me £40. V7.1 I bought the
Cheep CD and paid £6.50
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: slashdot
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:09:47 -0400
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:35:45 -0500, "Bobby D. Bryant"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Jeff Szarka wrote:
>
>> Is slashdot down YET again? As of 10:52PM eastern it seems to be.
>>
>> If Microsoft.com or hotmail.com was down you guys would say it proves
>> NT sucks... Well? Why can't slashdot seem to stay up more than few
>> days at a time?
>
>It has been having problems all weekend.
>
>Do you have some kind of inside information telling you that the problem
>is with the OS? Last time this happened it was a script kiddie's DDoS
>attack.
>
>Bobby Bryant
>Austin, Tx
>
>p.s. -- I'm curious why anyone would use outages at hotmail.com as
>evidence that NT sux.
>
I just think it's funny. The point is supposed to be Linux is so much
better than NT right? I remember when the Win2k test site was DoS-ed.
The suggestion at the time was that Win2k sucked because of it.. I
don't really care why slashdot is down... It's the irony of it I
enjoy.
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: slashdot
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:13:23 -0400
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:46:07 -0400, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It is clear that
>they would not have the budget or the manpower that Microsoft has.
It sounds like you're trying to justify slashdot being down because of
this.
Linux is free right? Hardware is pretty cheap these days, even on the
high end. I seem to recall the owners of slashdot are not exactly
poor. I would image the ad banner revenue of slashdot alone is more
than enough to aford decent hardware.
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:16:35 -0400
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:08:03 GMT, "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> From the sounds of Linux advocates... yes.
>
>That's a bit of a blanket statement. I think the phrase your looking for is
>Linux fanatics. I can certainly understand some people being fanatic about
>linux, but I think there's a distinct difference between fanatacism and
>advocacy.
Maybe. I've just run into it far too often. Honestly I'm just sick of
it. I love hearing about problems with Linux these days... Does that
make me just as bad? Probably. No one is innocent in an advocacy
group. The difference is that I'd be perfectly willing to use Linux if
it ever lived up to its hype.
>But from the sounds of your response the real answer is no. No one
>promised anybody "that every aspect of Linux would be better than
>Windows".
Have you met Jedi yet?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was:
Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 26 Jun 2000 08:25:39 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Loren Petrich wrote:
>> Russia is clearly in *disarray*.
>Wrong....the CIVILIAN POPULATION is in disarray.
>The bigwigs in government, on the other hand, has managed to consolidate
>even more power than before...what used to be "state property" is now
>firmly in the hands of "The Oligarchs", who just happen to ALL be
>party insiders.
And how are they supposed to be a unified front rather than some
loose community of feudal lords?
>Back in the 1970's, one of their philosophical leaders (can't remember
>who) said, "We will feign weakness at the time of our greatest
>strength).
From a grove of birch trees it came.
Yes, John Birch trees :-)
I consider it absurd because if it is feigning weakness, it's
going too far. Consider:
* The USSR's Eastern-European empire: GONE
* East Germany: annexed by West Germany
* The republics of the USSR: separate nations
* Chechnya: hardly worth calling a triumph
* The Party: now has competition
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:31:46 -0400
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 06:17:28 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>>
>>How many times have you been mail bombed by Windows advocates? Thought
>>so. I guess my arguments were too good... I'm not exactly sure what
>>other group would send me 300-500 messages saying "Windows sucks" I've
>
> What? Your "ease of use interfaces" can't deal with a little spam?
Did you guys all have a secret meeting and decide to prove me right as
many times as possible this week? Seriously... it's like every post
gets a response like this. INSTANT validation.
For your information... I followed these steps...
1) Sort by sender
2) Click first message... click last message (while holding down
shift)
3) Press delete
4) Set rule to do this automatically for this sender in the future.
Just out of curiosity... how would one do this with pine?
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:32:24 -0400
On 25 Jun 2000 01:19:04 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
wrote:
>>Linux is a fine little OS if you have the time for it... I don't.
>
>You could have gotten that Mandrake loaded in expert mode in
>less time than it took to post all of the complaints.
Actually.. when I installed it in expert mode the install took
FOREVER. 2 hours at least.
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:48:45 -0400
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:22:43 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Jeff Szarka wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:01:39 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >Could you please stop being so nasty? What has the Linux community
>> >done to Windows to make you people so nasty?
>>
>> How many times have you been mail bombed by Windows advocates? Thought
>> so. I guess my arguments were too good... I'm not exactly sure what
>> other group would send me 300-500 messages saying "Windows sucks" I've
>> forgotten some of the other interesting things that have happend. Oh
>> yea.. I seem to recall at least one death threat.
>
>HUH? Have you reported these people to their ISP's? That's really,
>really lame! I didn't know people did that? Are these people present
>on this Usenet-group?
There wasn't any familar name attached. At the time I had decided it
wasn't worth trying to track down whoever did it since someone was
attacking another group I goto and our results trying to report this
person to his ISP / etc went unheard. The pest still pops up now and
again there. I thought at one point maybe the mail bombs came from
this pest but he never did (or ever since) mail bomb me so... I doubt
it was his doing.
>Actually, i have been mailbombed and threatened once because of a
>little nasty link i put up here. Mailbomb didn't have much of an
>effect, though. I'm using a small Linux-server which throws all the
>mail with my above address away immediately.
I used my real address since when I first starting posting I had no
reason to believe I should have done otherwise.
>> Not to mention the people who are so close minded that simply
>> disagreeing with THE LINUX way in their little plastic minds means I
>> work for Microsoft. I actually found COLA while looking for Linux help
>> in other groups because at the time I was quite interested in Linux.
>
>That doesn't include me. But the Windows-advocates aren't innocent
>themselves, you know. Have you seen the posts from
>Steve/Heather/whatever.. and Tim Palmer?
I haven't followed this group closely in many months. Steve used to
post very reasonable comments, many times giving Linux credit where
credit was due. I'm not sure what has happened since.
>> I figured I'd share my thoughts on Linux and see what Linux advocates
>> had to say. They flamed me, they claimed I worked for Microsoft,
>> they've mail bombed me, they've called me a liar. Exactly why should I
>> like Linux?
>
>You could also choose to ignore everything and stop posting here. You
>say yourself that Linux isn't a threat to Microsoft. This brings me to
>the question: Why Windows advocacy? Microsoft has a
>marketing-department of it's own, which it pays a lot of money for.
>What's your mission here?
1) Amusing myself
2) Standing up for a product that has served me well.
Which is a good time to state...
I don't own Microsoft stock (now or ever) and I don't work for
Microsoft (now or ever although... given the correct figures I would
consider it)
>> Maybe FreeBSD-ers are the same way but... everytime I've run into them
>> they've been helpful and friendly. I think Linux suffers from far to
>> many Microsoft haters whereas BSD has the actual UNIX fans.
>
>I'm an actual Unix-fan. I think the Linux community is simply getting
>fed up with all those Microsoft-fans who like to repeat the same lies
>over and over again for years.
I know the feeling... just replace Microsoft-fans with Linux zealots.
>> Linux is a fine little OS if you have the time for it... I don't.
>
>See? There you go again. I set up the Linux box i'm working on in 30
>minutes.
Well, all my installs of Linux have never worked properly. I had a
friend trying to install Linux call me last night... again... didn't
work. I know I'm not alone when it comes to having a huge track record
of Linux installs that never worked.
Initial setup is only the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes I got X
working... other times not. Sometimes I could dial out with my modem..
sometimes not.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Marshall)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: stability of culture of helpfulness
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:56:31 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In alt.os.linux on Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:43 -0500,
Andrew N. McGuire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 25 Jun 2000, Tim Palmer wrote:
>
>+ Maybe youd be abal to rite better coad to.
>
>You are a real piece of work. Learn to spell, get an idea of what
>you are talking about, then maybe post if you have something useful
>to contribute, troll.
>
>anm
Gotta be a troll. Nobody can spell that poorly without trying.
--
Slackware 7.0 Linux
1:55am up 2 days, 3:33, 5 users, load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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