Linux-Advocacy Digest #429, Volume #27 Sun, 2 Jul 00 18:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux code going down hill (David M. Cook)
Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use? (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Linux code going down hill (Timothy Murphy)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (Gary Hallock)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (Gary Hallock)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Where did all my windows go? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ("Daniel Johnson")
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ("Daniel Johnson")
Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box? (Re: I'm Ready! I'm ready! I'm not ready.)
("Gonzo")
Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box? ("Gonzo")
Re: Trying Linux yet again.... (Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pr=FCfer?=)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pr=FCfer?=)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David M. Cook)
Subject: Re: Linux code going down hill
Date: 2 Jul 2000 21:11:02 GMT
On 2 Jul 2000 20:04:49 GMT, abraxas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Gnu is Not Unix. Neither is Linux. You are using a UNIX-*like*
>operating system, but there are quite alot of very important
>differences between linux (such as utter reliance on GNU code)
>and UNIX.
Apart from a trademark, what exactly is UNIX? I don't think "unix" is well
defined enough to make the above statement very meaningful.
Dave Cook
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: We WANT different enviroments (Was: Linux, easy to use?
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:49:55 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:53:35 GMT...
...and Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Desktop look and feel maybe, but could you cope with different flavours
> >of CTRL-C for abort say? Or maybe CTRL-Z is redefined to mean something
> >different. Wouldn't that cause confusion, no?
>
>
> CTRL-C has meant abort for over 20 years. It is Microsoft that made it
> mean 'copy' in their apps. KDE and Gnome are now doing it to mimic MS
> Windows. Thus we have inconsistency between terminals and GUI apps
> on Windows, KDE and Gnome.
I hope you'll be able to globally reconfigure that in both GNOME and
KDE soon. Personally, if I need to copy explicitly instead of
implicitly having copy-on-highlight, I want to use a sane shortcut,
not the internationally accepted shortcut for "abort" :)
For GNOME and GTK+ applications, there should be some way to remap
that with gtkrc files or such, but I'm not sure. As to KDE, I'm pretty
positive they've already got a mechanism in place to globally redefine
this kind of stuff.
mawa
--
Taschenkammträger!
Discozulautfinder!
Hermann-Hesse-Leser!
Schrankwandbesitzer!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: Re: Linux code going down hill
Date: 2 Jul 2000 22:21:30 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David M. Cook) writes:
>Apart from a trademark, what exactly is UNIX? I don't think "unix" is well
>defined enough to make the above statement very meaningful.
Unix is well-defined, but is more or less pointless.
It simply means that the company involved had enough money,
and the inclination, to register their system.
In my experience, almost all software is easier to compile under Linux
than under Solaris,
so it is certainly not true that the Unix name
guarantees ease of use.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: 086-233 6090
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 17:30:05 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
>
> And how long have you been using reiserfs?
>
> UNIX systems typically do not cope well with the power being interrupted.
> As they cache all files, and don't write changes out immediately, there is
> a danger of losing change.
>
That's simply noy true. Generalizations like that are why you good flamed
sometimes. Try using AIX. In the middle of running a few dozen processes
doing active work pull the power cord and see what happens. JFS on AIX is
very good and makes AIX very stable. And JFS has been made open source and
is currently being ported to Linux. Just one of many journaled file systems
for Linux.
Gary
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 17:37:58 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> Since UNIX systems don't write out file changes immediately to disk, if you
> time it right, you'll lose such changes. Has Linux changed that?
>
>
If you are not using a journaled file system then it is a good idea to run a
background process (perhaps using cron) that issues a sync every few minutes.
Then, if something goes wrong and you have to reboot, just wait a few
minutes. You can also use the Sysreq key to force a sync anytime you want -
even after a kernel panic. For power losses, use a UPS. But then, of
course, there are a number of journaled file systems available for Linux.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Date: 2 Jul 2000 16:36:37 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aaron Kulkis) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>What happens when LoseDOS suddenly has yet anoter epileptic seizure
>>and BSOD's, then, after it comes up, it lost the driver for your
>>printer, and you can't find the install disk?
>
>And Linux doesn't lose file system changes after a crash does it?
Only if it crashes within seconds of writing the change. However
I've experienced the lost printer driver syndrome on Windows95
several times where it had just run out of disk space doing
something unrelated to printing.
>>I'll tell you what... you're COMPLETELY up a creek.
>
>And if Linux blows away the config file, I guess you just type it in from
>memory.
Linux config files are small text files that are easily backed up
if you don't want to fill out the setup form again. Under
MS-windows you have no way of knowing what it takes to save
a particular configuration or installation, or how to paste
in the information from a similar working system.
>>Conversely under Unix, you just edit the config file, and resume
>>as normal.
>
>If you can remember the settings. Oh yes, you could go and read the HOWTO's
>etc. If you can make sense of them.
For a printer, you can usually trace the cable over to the computer
port if you have forgotten the port, and read the name on the front
panel. With MS-Windows, after doing that, you have to dig out the
appropriate CD, or download the current driver from the vendor's web site.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:33:26 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in <8jnueh$1hb$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >???????? you're the one wrongly blaming Linux for KDE problems! I am
> >NOT a troll for objecting to your false accusations! You
> >however, knowing the difference between KDE and Linux, continue to
> >wrongly blame Linux for KDE problems. What should you be called? By
> >continuing to make such false claims when you know better, I
certainly
> >would no call you someone who is interested in the truth!
>
> I'm not blaming Linux for KDE problems. I'm blaming "Linux" for the
> problems that I'm seeing. Do you not understand the difference? Is it
> really necessary for me to spell it out every time? I mean "Linux
desktop,
> as in KDE". Can't you guys figure it out from the context?
Yes, YOU SHOULD SPELL IT OUT EVERY TIME because KDE IS NOT LINUX or
"LINUX" period!
And No, we can not figure it out form context because KDE is NOT LINUX
or "LINUX"
The fact that you want to try to confuse the two so that you can blame
Linux for your KDE problems is not acceptable.
>
> As for false accusations, what false accusations?
>
> My Linux system has done the following:
>
> (i) Kernel oops on shutdown
Never seen an "oops".
> (ii) Freeze in postfix on shutdown
Postfix is an APPLIATION! Could be a configuration problem (USER ERROR)
I use sendmail or qmail and have NO PROBLEMS. THERE IS A difference
between an application error and an OS error! Or don't you get it???
> (iii) All desktop applications disappeared and my only recourse
> was to logout.
Since you were able to LOGOUT, LINUX was still running!!!!! DUH! it was
Xwindows that was having a problem! Your background opperations were
still running fine! That is why it is VERY important to distingush
between the two!!!!!!
MS is the system that the whole OS locks up on a GUI error!
>
> I also descovered the following:
>
> (i) USB ZIP 250 are currently _not_ supported according to the
> HOWTO files installed on my system.
Driver issues, or freinds over in the MS advocacy groups have assured us
that drivers are not part of the OS!
> (ii) System logs indicate my USB scanner is _not_ recoginsed as
> a known device.
Same as above!
>
> >Yeap, that's about the meaning I intenened for about a person who
knows
> >the difference betteen KDE and Linux yet blames Linux for a KDE
problem!
>
> Sigh. See above.
Sigh See above.
>
> Pete
>
I can see you still don't get it! Go back to school and learn something!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:44:47 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:395f6524$1$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >I've seen it many times before from many different
> >people on many topics. I know I can't break through
> >it with mere facts.
>
> Why are you trolling here?
I'm obviously an addict. Any sane man would have given
up by now. :D
By the way, where's here to you? This one's crossposted
to everything .advocacy.
But then, there really is only One True Advocacy Forum.
All the others are pale imitations. :D
> Do you work for M$?
No. Wouldn't it be nice if they paid me for this?
------------------------------
From: "Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:44:48 GMT
"Leslie Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8jo6bd$7v0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <9iI75.2912$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Daniel Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
> >> Just try to keep an NT box running with no service packs and
> >> whatever the original IIS version was. When it crashes,
> >> call up MS and pay them to tell you what to do. It was
> >> just as foolish to run that back then as it would be
> >> today.
> >
> >So, you are suggesting that nothing has changed then?
>
> Not enough, but that's not the point. This was about the
> damage MS caused by trying to force ISPs to install IIS
> as their web servers by providing desktop client software
> that refused to interoperate nicely with anything else.
They have no interest in impoving a competitors product;
only their own. That's pretty much standard issue, though.
I don't see that they caused damage that way.
> (a recurring theme here...) The thing that HAS changed is
> that *now* they will tell you that you shouldn't run those
> versions...
Sure, they always tell you to run the latest versions;
there's a recurring theme for you. :D
> >> Yet they did everything they could to force
> >> ISPs into using it.
> >
> >Well, I'll stick by what I said: If this is true, MS screwed up-
> >they hardly *want* to sell unstable software that makes
> >them look bad.
>
> But that's all they had. It didn't stop them.
No, it didn't; it never does. But it made them look bad;
it's one of the more significant weaknesses in MS,
they always have to have a v1.0 that's crap.
[snip]
> >It probably expected HTTP-PUT to work or something.
>
> Black magic.
Guess so.
> >I take it from your reaction that Apache can support only
> >FTP. :D
>
> It isn't difficult to update files on a unix server, so there
> is no need for a web server to integrate a file transfer
> protocol.
Is not HTTP-PUT part of the hypertext transfer protocol? Is
it optional or something?
[snip]
> >Cool. So if you have a plug-in layer like this, why are you so
> >insistant that everyone else must use your protocols? Doesn't
> >this PAM work properly?
>
> Yes, but as I said, you have to touch every client to modify
> it, and change the server at the same time. That is not the
> same as interoperating with a standard protocol which allows
> changing one component at a time anywhere. Being forced
> to change an entire enterprise at once is annoying to
> the point of making any changes impractical.
Sounds like it doesn't work very well, compared to MS's;
with MS's you can have more than one protocol installed
at once. That can save a lot of trouble.
[snip]
> >That was before MS decided to embrace the Internet, and
> >brought TCP/IP to PCs. At that time, PC LANs ran on
> >NetBEUI or IPX/SPX or something like that.
>
> Hardly. TCP was there before MS-TCP.
Sure. Running Unix hosts and the Internet. But not LANs.
> >What has changed since then is that Microsoft has
> >decided to make the sacrifices to interoperate with Unix
> >system. They realise that Unix is not going to do it-
> >they will stick to their own protocols, regardless of
> >what everyone else is doing.
> >
> >MS has more than met you halfway on this one.
>
> Heh... You mean they finally noticed that people were
> hooking up networks of more than the 256 node limit
> of NETBEUI.
They noticed the Internet; far easier to fix NetBEUI's limits
than switch to a whole new protocol- but you can't
expect the Unix world to interoperate with you, so you've
got to look for some other approach.
The demand for Internet access was great enough that
MS had to do it.
It's a pity that Unix boxes weren't more amenable to other
network technologies, but such is life.
[snip]
> >> It wasn't necessary to break java to implement it.
> >
> >That's true. But you do have to undermine Sun's
> >"Java platform" strategy if you want to make Java
> >a decent Windows programming tool.
>
> Ah, so you define 'decent' as something that doesn't
> interoperate? Interesting....
I define "decent Windows programming tool" as
"able to access the Win32 API".
> >And that's what gets Sun so hot.
>
> As they should. Portable byte code is the whole point.
It's the whole point from Suns vantage point, certainly. But
don't confuse Java with Sun. Java has real virtues as a
programming language. It's most unfortunate that Sun
seems it solely as an MS-killer.
[snip]
> >Sure it was; standard HTML doesn't have the features they
> >wanted. If you want to use those features, you gotta do something
> >that isn't standard at some point.
>
> No, you work to get the features that users need added to
> the standard, which normally is only a problem if those
> features are platform-specific and don't belong in a standard.
I don't think this is a good way to run the industry; we've
seen how letting standards body run things turns out:
you get a codification of existing practice as best.
We can do better than that.
We just have to be willing to tolerate a little diversity. We
*can* cope with it, techncially speaking. There's no good
reason to avoid it.
[snip]
> >Well, if you believe technical documentation from MSDN is
> >"MS propaganda", there's no hope for you, really. It's a
> >hermetically sealed worldview; you reject sources of
> >information because they come from The Enemy.
>
> I suppose it is possible for them to present something
> that isn't warped to their perspective, but I haven't
> seen it yet. If it is so difficult for you to find
> unbiased sources, I think you should be concerned yourself.
I've heard that too. But I think "biased" means "on Microsoft's
side" to you; and agreeing with Microsoft is surely evidence
of being on Microsoft's side, no?
You've picked your sources: the ones that agree with you.
> >I've seen it many times before from many different
> >people on many topics. I know I can't break through
> >it with mere facts.
>
> Facts? All I've seen so far are your misconceptions
> about interoperability that just show you aren't
> actually doing any.
Well, it seems to me that we're using different definitions
of "interoperability".
You mean by it "uses the same protocol Unix does"; or
at least I've not found any counterexample where something
is "interoperable" to you but doesn't use a Unix protocol.
------------------------------
From: "Gonzo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box? (Re: I'm Ready! I'm ready! I'm not
ready.)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 17:00:30 -0500
He can buy Maximum Linux Magazine which usually comes with at least one or
two free CDs. 2nd issue had Mandrake 7.0 and storm Linux in the shrinkwrap
and the rag is full of useful information on Linux.
------------------------------
From: "Gonzo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box?
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 17:03:58 -0500
Laura Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I believe that was a problem with some earlier versions only.
Right Laura. It was the K6 233MHz that ran a little hot but nothing a good
heatsink and fan couldn't handle. The K6 266 & faster used a lower voltage
setting (2.2 v I think) which ran cooler.
------------------------------
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pr=FCfer?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Trying Linux yet again....
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:45:13 +0200
Jeff Szarka wrote:
[...]
> Ps, I don't think Deja.com has alt.os.mandrake.
Ahh ... but still you told me to have a look there and see for myself
:-)
> deja.com/usenet is your friend
> Search for my name...
> You'll find a message in alt.os.mandrake
Never mind. I hope you got all the support required in that NG.
Otherwise post a decent request in comp.os.linux.setup and you will find
more help.
Cheers
Jens
------------------------------
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pr=FCfer?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 18:22:11 +0200
[...]
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.71 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.10 i586)
>
> If this is what you used to load dumpthepump then that's why it worked.
> This is specifically a bug in kfm -- not Linux, not XFree86, not KDE, but
> kfm.
Exactly that was my point. It has nothing to do with Linux or even KDE
in general!
Cheers
Jens
------------------------------
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