Linux-Advocacy Digest #515, Volume #27 Fri, 7 Jul 00 09:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: ## HOT ## Microsoft software for Linux (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: 486 Linux setup, 250 meg HD, which distro ??? (Steve Martin)
Re: A e-mail client with Outlook-like functionality (OSguy)
Re: offering escape, Re: Three things not to say to spam victims... (Steve Sobol)
Re: Linux Hardware Compatibility Lists - Re: Linux lags behind Windows (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner? ("Colin R. Day")
Re: ## HOT ## Microsoft software for Linux (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Linux faster than Windows? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is just plain awful (Aaron Kulkis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sucks
Subject: Re: ## HOT ## Microsoft software for Linux
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:36:23 GMT
Atanas Kolev wrote:
>
> This is not the only Microsoft program for Linux.
> For a long time exists Microsoft Netshow (like realplayer) for Linux - check
> the microsoft site.
Can you say "Embrace, extend, and extinguish?" Let's pollute
Java! Let's dick with Kerberos! Let's add our own tags to
HTML! Let's hook up the MS name with Linux!
THWMS (To Hell With Microsoft)
--
[ ] Check here to always trust content from Chris
------------------------------
From: Steve Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: 486 Linux setup, 250 meg HD, which distro ???
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:15:34 -0400
Jim Cameron wrote:
> >hacked every 5 minutes your on the internet. Choose Slack, Choose sleepless
> >nights tearing your hair out, Choose Debian, Choose never being able to use
>
> I use Slack, and I have LOTS of hair. 8-)
I started out with Slackware, and I have *no* hair! ('Course,
I'm 45 years old, too... <g>)
------------------------------
From: OSguy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A e-mail client with Outlook-like functionality
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 07:35:16 -0500
Adam Warner wrote:
> Frankly it's unbelievable that Netscape Messenger doesn't allow more than
> one pop3 address (and that goes for StarOffice as well).
Mozilla's M17 Seamonkey does allow multiple pops. I don't know if Netscape 6.0
will, however.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Sobol)
Crossposted-To: news.admin.net-abuse.email
Subject: Re: offering escape, Re: Three things not to say to spam victims...
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:32:33 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From 'Cameron L. Spitzer':
>It is very difficult to keep that an educational exercise, but if you
>can do that the results are extraordinary.
>
>I brought a bag of diskettes to the ASGP convention (we nominated
>Ralph Nader for president of the US) last month, Debian GNU/Linux 2.1r5
>Rescue Disk.
[snip]
May I have permission to quote this on my personal web site and on my
Linux user group's mailing list?
--
North Shore Technologies, Cleveland, OH http://NorthShoreTechnologies.net
Steve Sobol, BOFH - President, Chief Website Architect and Janitor
Pictures of two of my 'children': http://www.WrinkleDogs.com
About Spamfighters: "We're not net nazis. We're dot communists." - W. Arnold
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Hardware Compatibility Lists - Re: Linux lags behind Windows
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:25:22 GMT
In article <8k3659$n67$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Congratulations, you've managed to spend about $2000 on the
> latest, greatest, and most intensely protected equipment, carefully
> chosen because it was NOT on any of the compatibility lists.
I bought the system a long time before I considered running Linux on it.
I did not buy the system deliberately because it wasn't on Linux HCL.
> Now realize you could have saved about $1200, gotten better
> performance, and had a chance of offering anything like a credible
> opinion about Linux instead of just being another wintroll who
> bought Microsoft's "best choices" configuration - designed to make
> use of companies that would probably engage in acts of violence
> against anyone who threatened to ruin their relationship with
> Microsoft (since Microsoft has nearly bankrupted each of them
> at least once).
SMC as far as I know has no agreements with Microsoft. They are too
small being located in one shop in Slough, Middlesex, England.
> You had to shop really carefully for this set of hardware.
See above.
> Linux does support the USB ZIP 100 drive. Without the driver
> commands from IOMEGA (covered by Microsoft NDAs), if Linux attempted
> to write to your 250 meg hard drive, it could fry the formatting.
> The rule for USB is if you're not absolutely sure of the device,
> don't mess with it. With Microsoft arm-twisting the vendors into
> nondisclosure agreements that lock them out of the market, you
> just have to wait.
I have a SCSI ZIP 100 MByte drive that works just fine under Linux.
You know I bought the ZIP 250 precisely because it was portable. I also
bought it long before I considered running Linux.
If Linux did not lag behind Windows, it would have supported this by
now.
> Again, you don't want Linux treating it like an older HP scanner and
> stepping the motor so far that it shatters your scanner lens or
> illumination light do you? When HP decides to do whatever it has
> to do to break it's NDA with Microsoft and publish a Linux module
> (even a binary-only version) we can load it. Remember, with Linux,
> the USB protocol is handled, but that's like knowing IP without
> knowing TCP, HTTP, or HTML and knowing that you will be sued into
> 2100 if you even think of reverse-engineering the protocol without
> Microsoft's consent. The Judge says this is illegal, but Microsoft
> doesn't care. The Judge put his demand that Microsoft cancel these
> NDAs on hold, probably to see if Microsoft would do ANYTHING
> voluntarily, but Microsoft doesn't care. The Supreme Court and
> Appellate court will be informed of these behaviors, but Microsoft
> doesn't care. Appearantly Bill Gates thinks he owns at least 7 out
> of 10 of the DC Apellate court judges, and 5 out of 7 of the Supreme
> Court judges. Anyone else would be trying to look like a model
citizen
> right now.
Assuming there is an NDA covering this sort of thing. We'll never know
unless it comes out in court.
> Betcha a nickle there's a Microsoft NDA on that card, as well as
> the drivers?
You'd lose then. You're out of date already. There are Linux drivers in
XFree86 4.0.1 and Windows 2000 beta drivers.
> Does the Voodoo 5 use exactly the same chipset commands as the
> Voodoo 3 card?
Dunno. I saw it was 'software compatible' which probably means no.
> 2-Detailed specifications of protocols between the device and the
> host machine - the USB port or the PCI slot in the case of your
> Voodoo 5 card. Again, covered by illegal NDAs, would be nullified
> under behavioral remedy, but IHVs not forced to disclose the
> protocol unless they think they want to (to reach the fastest
> growing market for IHV after-market products).
See above for the Voodoo 5 card.
> 3-Appropriate enhancements to existing GPL drivers. This usually
> means adding the device to the devices recognised as functional
> under this driver, possibly some conditional initialization, and
> possibly some conditional code during operation. For example, if
> the Voodoo 5 card has 16 meg RAM and the Voodoo 3 card has 8, then
> you might add conditional code to support the extra RAM. Again,
> Microsoft NDAs would be violated. The Judge says "tear up that
> contract, it's no good". But some IHVs and OEMs might not want
> to extend drivers that make their newest card work "just like the
> old one did".
See above. So much for your assumption about an NDA.
> An AMD K6-500 with I128 video, internal zip drive, a compatible
> parallel ECP printer and scanner, and a perhaps even one of the
> supported USB printers and/or SANE supported USB scanners, you
> could have built the entire system for under $1000 (not including
> monitor), and gotten a good system and a legitimate evaluation.
I question the good system statement. Sounds a bit lame to me.
> The next bugger eatin' wintroll that whines about how Windblows-only
> hardware don' work on 'is 90 minute "I really tried to install Linux
> but I couldn't' excursion should get one of this posting sent to him
> verbatim, and a copy of both the whine and the posting should be
> sent to the Department of Justice, antitrust division.
Ah standard Linux advocate fare. If you can't beat them, hurl insults.
> If Microsoft still thinks it's above the law, can bully IHVs into
> excluding Linux, and then hire paid wintrolls to carefully shop
> for the perfect combination of excluded software so that they can
> honestly say "this configuration doesn't work therefore Linux is
> a terrible operating system that deserves no one's consideration",
> should be investigated more carefully - don't you think?
See above.
> > Windows support all of these products
> > as there are drivers available for them.
>
> And you knew before you purchased any of them (or should have
> known) that NONE of these products were supported.
I stated earlier that Linux support was not on my mind when I bought the
machine about a year ago.
> 1900 devices ARE supported, including most of the components used
> by nearly every major manufacturer over the last 10 years, but
> you can't seem to figure out how to configure a working system.
> Not only that, but EVERY component you suggested was KNOWN IN ADVANCE
> to be unsupported.
SB16 unsupported?
AHA152x unsupported?
I did not _know in advance_ these components would be unsupported and
deliberately do this to portray Linux in a bad light.
> Go play with your dragon - or whatever you do with Bill these days,
> or - make a LEGITIMATE ATTEMPT to CONFIGURE A LINUX system. Either
> way, stop whining about how you can't get Linux to work on NDA-ware.
Go away yourself and learn to be more civil, people might take you
seriously.
NDA-ware! HAH! If the Voodoo 5 stuff was NDA please EXPLAIN WHY THERE
ARE NOW DRIVERS FOR XFree86 4.0.1???
> Of course Microsoft included drivers for the older products, it had
> to. No one would upgrade or even purchase the new versions of Windows
> if they didn't. At the same time, Microsoft can hold the "Sword of
> Damecles over the heads of some Independent Hardware Vendors (IHVs).
> And they use this leverage to illegally force them to exclude support
> for Linux for as long as possible.
SB16 and AHA152x could be said to be older hardware. Yet, they would not
auto install on my Linux system. I had to manually make changes to
various scripts to get them to work. Windows 98 SE and Windows 2000 has
no problems with these devices? Why does Linux? Could it be... "Linux
lags behind Windows"?
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner?
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:02:20 -0400
Tim Palmer wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:24:08 +0100, Alex DeLarge
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Why is it that all you LIE-nux nuts alwase clame that Windo's crashes all
> >the time when its not trew?
> >
> >I don't find that windows crashes all the time, in fact I use windows for
> >lots of things, including this post. But I do know for a fact that it slows
> >down over time because of the registry getting bigger. I do know that it's
> >memory management is awful (NT's is better but not much, and I've not had a
> >chance to test 2K's). I do know that it's TCP/IP stack is absolutely
> >diabolical.
> >
>
> Its better than UNIX. On UNIX if your downloading a file you cant evan make new
>connectian because of "host name lookup
> faleure". Windo's doesn't halve this probelm at al.
Of course Windows doesn't halve the problem, it doubles it.
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.best,alt.linux.sucks,be.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: ## HOT ## Microsoft software for Linux
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:07:38 -0400
Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>
> "Gert Vandelaer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schreef in bericht
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > This is not the only Microsoft program for Linux.
> > > For a long time exists Microsoft Netshow (like realplayer) for Linux -
> check
> > > the microsoft site.
> >
> > I WILL MOST CERTAINLY DO NO SUCH THING !!!!
> > :-)
>
> Neither will I ;-)
> Still, there is even other software from M$ for Linux: Frontpage extensions
> to the Apache Webserver (Not really Linux, but more for Unix)
> However, as could be expected, there are several security issues in using
> this program...
Whoooooo would have guessed...
> :-)))
> --
> Groetjes,
>
> Wouter
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux faster than Windows?
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 13:59:22 +0100
On 7 Jul 2000 05:09:17 GMT, "Tod D. Ihde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>My point was that nobody cares about _good_ code anymore - about saving
>that byte, about saving that clock cycle. Everyone's answer is to just throw
>more CPU, more memory, more HD space at a problem until it becomes bearable,
>not to actually go through their code & try to make it leaner, meaner, more
>refined & elegant.
There's a reason for that. First of all, good coders aren't cheap, and
there are few enough people available to do *average* coding (I'm
definitely an "average" coder :-)). Secondly, hardware *is* cheap,
now.
If you're trying to put together, say, a 1,000 user system, with sub-1
second response times, it's a *lot* cheaper just to throw a rack of
highly-configured servers with bags of memory running some bloated
DBMS into the mix than it is to hire a team of crack programmers to
code the entire thing in assembly language so that it'll run in 50k on
a single machine, service all the users, *and* make the tea :-) When
people were having to use something with the power of an 8088, a
megabyte of memory, and disks whose access times required a calendar
to measure them, and there simply *wasn't* anything better, it made
sense to pay people a lot of money to squeeze the maximum performance
out of it.
I really don't think that today's design philosophies are a sign of
the moral decline of the IT industry as we know it - they're just a
result of economic and technological factors.
--
Warning: end of message imminent. Stop reading now.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is just plain awful
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:09:51 -0400
Uwe Böhme wrote:
>
> Susan and Willy Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (or maybe someone else) wrote:
> > [lots of snips]
> > Here are the results of 11 months of questioning people:
> >
>
> > 72 percent said Linux sucks. Various reason given, hardware support and
> > old style looking applications lead the list. Written by a bunch of nerds
> > is a common comment.
> So the newuser advice is so bad in your "27 shops", that you're not able
> to give them a hardware compatibility list?? Ouch!
>
> > 11 percent said they could not install it.
> Being stupid is no good reason for returning a software
> X: I gave back my mercedes.
> Y: Why
> X: Neither I had a license, nor I knew hot to drive.
> Ouch!
>
> > 7 percent said Windows has more applications.
> And of course all of them have a lot of applications comming along with
> their bare Windows!
> Ouch!
>
> > 6 percent said they were going to sue us.
> The facts you mentioned above make me hope they will succeed.
>
> > 4 percent said they didn't have the time to learn it.
> So they better start cleaning the floor.
> Ouch, sorry... they would have to learn!
>
> > We had a lawyer try and convert his entire office of 14
> > computers to Linux with the hopes of using Wine to run the odd Windows
> > application that didn't have a Linux clone.
> > He almost went out of business and lost a lot of data. We had to provide
> > onsite tech help for this customer so that he didn't sue the pants off of
> > us.
> So maybe your "shops" lack the qualification of doing professional support.
>
> > We have informed the head office of all the troubles we are having with
> > Linux and in a memo to us, they have acknowledged that the other stores
> > are having similar problems.
> Minor note here: I wonder how you are "managing a national software chain"
> without sitting in the headoffice?
>
> > My feeling is that Linux will be removed from the shelves pretty soon
> > because it is just not worth the hassle.
> It's better to the linux community if you remove linux.
> Providing such poor services would demage it's reputation.
>
> > Susie and Willy Wong
>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> I know this is a troll, but some questions here might be really
> discussed, like how it's possible to avoid reputation demage
> by incompetent support.
> Also certifications from private
> companies like RH or SuSE can not be the final solution.
Uh oh.. a German talking about a Final Solution....
:-)
> --
> Uwe Böhme
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bnhof.de/~uwe/
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
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******************************
