Linux-Advocacy Digest #528, Volume #27 Fri, 7 Jul 00 22:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006 (Eric Bennett)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (abraxas)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (John Dyson)
Re: Malloy digest, volume 2451734 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Apache Up, MS Down (Mike Marion)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (John Dyson)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Joe Ragosta)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Joe Ragosta)
Re: Thorne digest, volume 2451734 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Who was that wo was scanning my ports--could it be Simon?
Re: Apache Up, MS Down (Arthur Frain)
Re: I had a reality check today :( (Chris Shepherd)
Re: An e-mail client with Outlook-like functionality ("Adam Warner")
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Steve Mading)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Steve Mading)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Stefaan A Eeckels)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:59:37 -0400
In article <EIu95.22532$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Eric Bennett writes:
>
> > Say what you will about Dave's picture on his web site, but
> > he doesn't look like a very blubbery fellow to me.
>
> Consider your own picture, Eric.
Yes, I would guess that I have a good deal more blubber than you do.
Then again, I don't live in such a warm climate, so I have more use for
extra insulation in the winter. :-)
Although perhaps it's equally cold if you spend enough time high up on
top of mountains at telescope facilities.
--
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: 8 Jul 2000 01:00:23 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in <8k3nqo$rr0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>In what way? *I* certainly feel restricted every time I have to use
>>Windows, and don't feel that way nearly as much when using Linux. So
>>if you want to make a blanket, universal statement of "Linux lags
>>behind", then you have some explaining to do.
>
> Lack of support for hardware is one area.
>
That, and arguably little support for 'point and drool' apps is another.
Though 'point and drool' is generally what the public wants, it doesnt
mean that its *correct*.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:00:38 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Software is not a person. Children are not possessions. Slavery
> >>
> >> ...but end users are.
> >>
> >We are talking about 'free software' not 'free end users'. Puuuleeese,
> >don't start comparing people and objects again.
>
> ...like "free countries"...
>
> Your pedantry is pointless and purely rhetorical.
>
Precise, clear and disciplined thinking is necessary when thinking
about sometimes complex subjects (or when misinformation is
perpetrated.)
There has to be a reason for the initial misinformation, and it is
obviously either deceit, sloppy thinking or assumption. Language
tricks are often an excellent way to misinform and destroy clear
thought.
Free software is like free sausages, neither are licensed by the
GPL :-). Other nonsense can easily be created, but don't solve the
problem. Some of the analogies that I have seen presented really
appear to be as silly as the first sentence in this paragraph, if
you REALLY REALLY read and understand them.
John
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Malloy digest, volume 2451734
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:01:59 GMT
Here's today's Malloy digest. Note how he now completely ignores all
the issues, including his alleged reciprocation. He clearly claimed
that I lied when I noted that he didn't reciprocate when I ignored him
for over a year. He clearly claimed that he reciprocated. Yes, he's
too embarrassed to admit that he, in fact, did not reciprocate.
Note how he also avoids the illogic of his claim that he'd have
little reason to "frequent these precincts" if I wasn't here, yet
he doesn't frequent the other "precincts" where I appear. Seems like
he's comfortable only where he can count on others to join him.
100> Tholen tholens:
100>
100> No solution for you, Tholen, but there might be others who would
100> like to do it.
Why would they like to do something unnecessary, Malloy?
100> Of course, given the state of OS/2 software sales, that's not
100> likely to happen.
Why should anyone write software that isn't needed, Malloy?
100> Gosh, if Microsoft had done that you'd be screaming holy heck
100> about lack of room for third-party "solutions."
On what basis do you make that claim, Malloy?
100> Hypocrite.
Prove it, if you think you can, Malloy.
100> Typical.
Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim from Malloy.
101> That would be a change, Tholen.
102> "Little man" Tholen tholenates:
102>
102> Ah, (little man) Tholen, can't admit you made a mistake, eh!
What alleged mistake, Malloy?
102> Prove it, if you think, (little man) Tholen.
Been there, done that, Malloy. Where have you been?
102> All you'd have to do, (little man) Tholen, is acknowledge the fact
102> that you were duly elected Kook of the Month instead of engaging
102> in denial.
Why should I acknowledge a lie, Malloy?
102> On the basis of what you write, (little man) Tholen.
Typical lack of specificity.
102> Not at all.
102>
102> It seems you're still trying to cover up your mistake there, too, (little
102> man) Tholen.
What alleged mistake, Malloy?
103> Today's Tholen Digest, part 3.14156789....
103>
103> [Nothing new]
103>
103> So you think, Tholen.
103>
103> Bye!
104> Here's today's Tholen digest, part MCLXXVI. Note how he completely
104> ignores the very issue on which the other issues depend
Liar.
104> because he's very wrong and is too embarrassed to admit, that he, in
104> fact, did not ciprocate in the first place.
Are you claiming that I didn't ignore your postings for over a year,
Malloy?
104> He lies, as usual, but we're used to it by now.
Where is the alleged lie, Malloy?
104> [nothing new]
104>
104> Thanks for stopping by!
105> Today's Tholen digest, part 2:
105>
105> [Still nothing!]
105>
105> Thanks for reading!
Rich C., please note why I use the digest format. Six postings from
Malloy in one day (and to think that he calls them digests!). By the
way, the number in the indent is a running number of his postings
since late May, which should give you an idea of his frequency.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:04:06 GMT
Eric Bennett writes:
>>> Say what you will about Dave's picture on his web site, but
>>> he doesn't look like a very blubbery fellow to me.
>> Consider your own picture, Eric.
> Yes, I would guess that I have a good deal more blubber than you do.
I was thinking of something else, Eric.
> Then again, I don't live in such a warm climate, so I have more use
> for extra insulation in the winter. :-)
That doesn't explain your other, shall we say, "features", Eric.
> Although perhaps it's equally cold if you spend enough time high up
> on top of mountains at telescope facilities.
I do, which is why your reasoning falls flat on its face, Eric.
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Apache Up, MS Down
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:05:25 GMT
Tim Palmer wrote:
> You left out this:
>
> Akamai adopt Windows 2000 for streaming media caching
>
> Akamai has been one of the leading proponents of Linux systems, using a huge
> number of Linux based systems
> for its http caching topology, and was recently reported as taking 20% of
> VA Linux's output. However,
> it seems to have adopted Windows 2000 for caching streaming media, with at
> least a few hundred systems
> already in place running Windows 2000. Windows 2000 has not previously been
> thought of a fabric of the
> internet infrastructure, and to see the leading caching company adopt it
> alongside a large existing
> Linux infrastructure will shock many.
Wow, is this really Tim Palmer? Sure the text alignment sucks, but I
don't see the usual glaring spelling errors.
BTW Tim, Where on their site do they talk about which OS they user
where? I looked around and couldn't find mention of Linux or W2k.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
It took the power of 3 Commodore 64's to go to the moon, but it takes a
486 to run Windows... Something is desperately wrong here. - Stolen from
/.
------------------------------
From: John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:06:19 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 19:03:16 -0500, John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 18:36:18 -0500, John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >Hyman Rosen wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> >> > Those other things that are free have few counterparts that are more free.
> >> >> > In the case of GPL, there are certainly licenses that are MUCH MORE FREE.
> >> >>
> >> >My response was with respect to other claims about items being 'free.'
> >> >In
> >> >those cases, there were few examples that had other alternatives that
> >> >were
> >> >more free. In the case of GPL, there are alot of cases where the code
> >>
> >> ...until the first would be plantation owner comes along.
> >>
> >> More equal than others does not constitute free.
> >>
> >Imagine a software plantation :-). Imagine all of the little software
> >slaves who cannot own (or control) the fruits of their labor :-)... Oh
> >yea, thems the add-on developers when using GPL.
>
> Yet in practice, in the real world, rather than whatever ivory
> tower you appear to have crawled out of: actual captains of
> industry are quite able to profit from L/GPLed works without
> giving their own away.
>
Which public GPL-only companies have showed significant profit? Perhaps
these orgs that you might be speaking of are still shareholder funded?
:-).
Yep, I always check on how the assets will build up, and evaluate the
future of a company before jumping in. I like making money, and avoid
those value-less companies.
> >
> >You continue begging the false analogies, but thought I'd play with you
> >for a minute :-).
>
> Play would be a good term for an infant such as yourself.
>
Are we getting under your skin? :-).
>
> The adults are busy making fortunes with Free Software
> despite your whining and your lies.
>
Thank you, your statements are straw, and BTW, some of them
might even catch up with me :-). I guess that I am beyond adult
then :-). Actually, I play the stock market all day, when I
don't want to work on some of my fun projects -- I do understand
what is going on economically (very well). Also, what I have
in the market are NOT stock options, and everything is fully
realized. (No virtual money here!!! :-)).
John
------------------------------
From: Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:23:32 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (void) wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:40:04 -0400, Rick
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >void wrote:
> >>
> >> Tell that to my friend, who bought an iMac and had a hard time getting
> >> his SCSI Zip drive to work over USB.
> >
> >Now, ahy are you blaming Apple for a non-supported peripheral not
> >working. How hard was it to connect a USB Zip to the iMac?
>
> Search me. My friend's Mac SE died and he bought the iMac. Is it so
> unreasonable for him to expect to use the same peripheral, especially
> when said peripheral is newish and uses a common, well-supported
> interface?
>
> I'm not blaming Apple so much as I'm pointing out that desktop computing
> is a sufficiently complex affair that nothing can be expected to "just
> work" all the time.
Why didn't he try to plug in a 5 1/4" floppy? After all, that was a
well-supported interface at one time, too.
The fact is that he tried to use something that wasn't meant to work
with the computer. That's not the computer's fault.
If I try to put my bicycle wheel on my Acura, is it the Acura's fault
that it doesn't fit?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
Get $10 free -- no strings attached. Just sign up.
https://secure.paypal.com/auction/pal=jragosta%40earthlink.net
Or get paid to browse the web:
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=KJS595
------------------------------
From: Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:24:26 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:02:04 -0500, Jason McNorton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (void) wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:42:09 GMT, Joe Ragosta
> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >Except Macs--where things just work.
> >> >
> >> > Tell that to my friend, who bought an iMac and had a hard time
> >> > getting
> >> > his SCSI Zip drive to work over USB.
> >> >
> >> > Now, my friend is pretty clueless, but he had someone more
> >> > knowledgeable
> >> > look at it, and they couldn't get it working either.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not anti-Mac, but be realistic. Things do not "just work" 100%
> >> > of
> >> > the time on any hardware platform that I know of.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nope. Just vastly more often than any other platform.
> >
> >Then don't say it 'just works', cause it sure doesn't.
>
> This is quite likely a vendor support issue. USB isn't quite like
> ADB since it's not an Apple standard. With both the SCSI->USB host
> and the Zip itself you have to hope that the hardware vendor is
> supporting your platform of choice in a reasonable manner.
Actually, it's simpler than that. In the other post, it seems like his
friend tried using a SCSI drive on an iMac _without_ a SCSI-USB
converter.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
Get $10 free -- no strings attached. Just sign up.
https://secure.paypal.com/auction/pal=jragosta%40earthlink.net
Or get paid to browse the web:
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=KJS595
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Thorne digest, volume 2451734
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:28:02 GMT
Today's Thorne digest:
1> The Tholenator tholed:
1> Incorrect.
1> On what basis do you make this claim?
Witness your response. Or do you often respond without looking, Thorne?
That could explain why you don't see the proof that I keep providing.
1> Balderdash.
1> Balderdash.
1> Balderdash. Are you taking posting lessons from Eric "Master
1> of Balderdash" Bennett again? How typical.
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> Incorrect.
1> Irrelevant.
1> Don't you know?
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> What you know is irrelevant, what you can prove is relevant.
1> Balderdash.
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> Balderdash.
1> Incorrect.
1> Irrelevant.
1> Don't you know?
1> Balderdash.
1> What you know is irrelevant, what you can prove is relevant.
1> Balderdash.
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> Balderdash.
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> Typical erroneous and unsubstantiated claim. Meanwhile, where
1> is your logical argument? Why, nowhere to be seen!
On the contrary, I've presented the evidence several times now for
your flagrant alteration of what I wrote, Thorne.
1> You're erroneously presupposing the existence of an answer.
1> Illogical. Are you taking illogic lessons from Joe "Master of
1> Illogic" Malloy again? How typical.
1> Open your eyes, Dave.
1> You're erroneously presupposing the existence of "it."
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
1> Irrelevant.
1> Incorrect.
1> Incorrect.
1> Prove it, if you think you can.
Already did that, Thorne.
1> I see you failed to answer the question. No surprise there.
1> Are you taking posting lessons from Eric "Master of Failing to
1> Answer Questions" Bennett again? How typical.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Who was that wo was scanning my ports--could it be Simon?
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:27:51 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Late lastnight, I noticed that someone was performing a port scan targeted
against my router. The attacker IP address was 209.246.107.110 which
corresponds to the hostname dialup-209.246.107.110.NewYork2.Level3.net. I
find that it is interesting that this is a dialup PPP connection through one
of the ISP that is used my Simon777, Susie Wong, and whatever other pseudo
identity that is used by whatever his or her real identitiy is.
The attack continued until mid morning today; other than a little loss of
badwidth the attack did not have any real effect on my network, my firewall
stopped the attack cold. I would like to remind the attacker that doing a
port scan attack on a network or computer without the permission of those
have authority over that equipment is a serious matter that can have
regretable results for the attacker. Performing an attack of this type
could also be a violation of the agreement that one has with their own ISP,
which could cause cancellation of the attacker's account.
=====
I run Linux, no bloody RedHat, Debian, Slackware, or Corel, just Linux.
Uptime report with held to avoid embarrasing Windows users.
------------------------------
From: Arthur Frain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Apache Up, MS Down
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 18:20:25 -0700
Tim Palmer wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:46:12 -0700, Arthur Frain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >According to the latest Netcraft survey
> >( http://www.netcraft.com/survey/ ):
> >Apache - 62.53% of 17M+ sites sampled
> >and still increasing.
> >MS - 20.38% of sites sampled and
> >decreasing (pretty steadily since
> >the W2K intro, too)
> You left out this:
> Akamai adopt Windows 2000 for streaming media caching
Nope, I didn't - it was referenced by the
URL given above (even you were able to
find it).
Doesn't change the fact that MS market
share continues to decrease according
to Netcraft.
Arthur
------------------------------
From: Chris Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I had a reality check today :(
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:54:24 -0400
> Cant you make your Generly Not Usefall (GNU) CommyLie-nux crap to handall long lines
>propperly?
I have a question for you O Tim. Could you please enlighten us all as to
why linux should have to compensate for basic rules of netiquette that
get ignored by a major player in the Email/NG market? Most email lists
and newsgroups wrap at 80 characters. I'm sure you can figure out how to
set Lookout to do this for you, can't you? Come on, you do know how
right?
--
Chris Shepherd
Vice President, GDPS Computers
Known in the SCA as William Silverlake
"(A)bort, (R)etry, (P)roject thoughts of massive violence."
------------------------------
From: "Adam Warner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: An e-mail client with Outlook-like functionality
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:57:04 +1200
BTW, it looks like I was wrong about StarOffice 5.2. It allows the creation
of multiple mail and news accounts by right-mouse clicking in the E-mail &
News section!
What mislead me is that Tools/Options/General/User Data only has one place
to specify an e-mail address.
Regards,
Adam
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 8 Jul 2000 01:56:52 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: In article <8k40g1$nr8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>
:>: The LGPL does not have this problem. Nor the one
:>: I mentioned. But it doesn't serve the political
:>: agenda of the FSF - the point of the GPL really *is*
:>: to control and usurp the works of others.
:>
:>Repeating an assertion a dozen times isn't any more convincing
:>than simply mentioning it once.
: I don't recall mentioning the LGPL recently.
That's nice. Too bad that's not the part that I was considering
repetative. It's the last sentence that's repetative: "the
point of the GPL really *is* to control and usurp the works of
others." That's the point currently under debate here.
Saying, "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isnt" over
and over again isnt' productive.
:>: Follow the 'philosophy' link from www.fsf.org to:
:>: http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html
:>
:>Please save me a little time - has it been changed in the last
:>few months? I'll only bother to read it if it has.
: Still looked the same to me. If you already understand
: their philosophy, why are you suggesting otherwise here?
The philosphy is that if they don't do these resitrictions,
then loopholes are opened for future abuse that would remove
even more freedom.
--
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven L. Mading at BioMagResBank (BMRB). UW-Madison
Programmer/Analyst/(acting SysAdmin) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
B1108C, Biochem Addition / 433 Babcock Dr / Madison, WI 53706-1544
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 8 Jul 2000 01:58:31 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Hyman Rosen wrote:
:>
:> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) writes:
:> > The LGPL does not have this problem. Nor the one
:> > I mentioned. But it doesn't serve the political
:> > agenda of the FSF - the point of the GPL really *is*
:> > to control and usurp the works of others.
:>
:> Of course this is a lie. The point of the GPL is to encourage
:> the development of free software.
:>
: That statement isn't consistant with the result, since the GPL
: isn't free.
Blah, blah blah - repeat same assertion - blah blah -repeat
same assertion - repeat until bored. This isn't productive.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:55:29 +0200
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hyman Rosen escribió:
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) writes:
>> > The LGPL does not have this problem. Nor the one
>> > I mentioned. But it doesn't serve the political
>> > agenda of the FSF - the point of the GPL really *is*
>> > to control and usurp the works of others.
>>
>> Of course this is a lie. The point of the GPL is to encourage
>> the development of free software.
>
> That only makes sense if you accept a priori that what the GPL
> calls free software actually is free software.
Obviously. And as was argued here over, and over again, there
is no reason not to accept that GPLed software is not free,
albeit in a restricted fashion.
>
> According to some opinion's (say, Mr. Dyson's and lately, my own)
> the GPL is not free in several meaningful ways.
The only signficant restriction is that sometimes one cannot use GPLed
software in combination with software that carries an incompatible
license, even if this is a "free" license.
>
> Thus, the purpose of the GPL is simply to promote the development
> of GPLd software. That is obvious in that, for example, the GPL
> discourages
> development of BSD-licensed software just as strongly as commercial
> software.
That's not true. The GPL doesn't allow you to license a derivative
work under the BSDL. It discourages derivative works that are not
licensed under a compatible license. It's the existence of GPLed code
that might discourage people to write compatible software under another
free license.
> As long as you believe that's a worthy goal, there is no problem,
> of course, just say it clearly and not obfuscate the goal by using
> words that have multiple meanings.
That's a value judgement, and one should consider several points:
- precious few words have only one meaning, and the usage of
the word "free" by the FSF and in the GPL is not significantly
outside the range of meanings available for the word "free".
- there is no reason to assume there was/is a desire to obfuscate
any goals, as the GPL is quite clear about its intentions.
- The FSF and the GPL predate many other "free" licenses, and
thus the onus is not on them to change or drop their use of
the word "free" WRT to software (as rms was probably _the_
first, or one of the very first, to define the word "free" as
applicable to software).
Do you think KDE would have been more widely adopted if it'd
been licensed under BSDL, or put in the public domain?
--
Stefaan
--
Ninety-Ninety Rule of Project Schedules:
The first ninety percent of the task takes ninety percent of
the time, and the last ten percent takes the other ninety percent.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:09:26 +0200
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
>>
>> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:04:46 -0500, John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >Hyman Rosen wrote:
>> >>
>> >> John Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> >> > Frankly those who claim that the GPL is free AND want to encumber
>> >> > redistribution of work that others do ARE repugnent.
>> >>
>> >> That work that others have done is voluntarily encumbered, since
>> >> they chose to use the GPLed code. Why is it repugnant to decide
>> >> that for yourself?
>> >>
>> >Please parse the sentence carefully. The term 'free' and GPL are
>> >incompatible.
>>
>> No they aren't. The GPL seeks to ensure certain end user
>> freedoms in perpetuity. If anyone is lying here it is you.
>
> US XVIIIth century law seeked to ensure the right of the plantation
> owner to enslave certain specific humans in perpetuity.
> Is that free for you?
It's not the perpetuity that matters. The objective of the GPL
is to ensure that every recipient enjoys the same rights (receive
the source, be allowed to modify it, redistribute under the same
conditions). It does not enslave anybody to give these rights to
the end users, contrary to your example. Its requirement to distribute
derivative works under a compatible license discourages the production
of derivatives when the add-on developer cannot, or doesn't want to,
honour that requirement. As there is no legal right to make derivative
works anyway, no freedom is removed by the GPL. Less freedom than
might be given is given, but that doesn't mean there is _no_
freedom. As has been argued, the accepted use of "freedom" does
acknowledge the existence of restrictions.
>
> The GPL seeks to ensure certain rights by denying certain others. That
> is not inherently bad or good, but it IS.
And no-one, not even the text of the GPL, denies that.
> This "the GPL is free" "it is not" debate is ludicrous, Noone has a
> freedometer.
I'd venture to say that the insistence with which the "gang of
three" argue that the GPL is not free is not warranted by the
facts or the attitude of those who think the GPL is not a bad
idea.
> Freedom is not a number.
Amen.
--
Stefaan
--
Ninety-Ninety Rule of Project Schedules:
The first ninety percent of the task takes ninety percent of
the time, and the last ten percent takes the other ninety percent.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
