Linux-Advocacy Digest #741, Volume #27 Mon, 17 Jul 00 22:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) (Eric Bennett)
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) (Jacques Guy)
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Pan)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) (tinman)
Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it (sandrews)
Re: which OS is best? (Pan)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Christopher Browne)
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? (abraxas)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) (Jacques Guy)
Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it (mlw)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen) (tinman)
Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it (Craig Kelley)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 17 Jul 2000 19:51:57 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8kpgo1$16r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >oh, grow up and get a life child. You couldn't possibly know how much
code
> >I've done and copyrighted in my life. Yep, as in registered at the
copyright
> >office, not just a little (C) in some remarks somewhere.
>
> Then how come searching for "Drestin" at locis.loc.gov (that's a telnet
> address) does not reveal a single entry with your name on it?
>
> Must have done all your coding before 1978, eh?
>
because smarty, the copyright isn't under the name "Drestin" - sheesh...
sadly, my last copyright was in 1998... I wish I had more time to code but
my job focus has switched.
------------------------------
From: Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:00:14 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jacques Guy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Soon, these newsgroups are going to consist of
> nothing but messages from bots and to bots. Raw
> bots, rough bots, tin bots, tholen bots
> (those with a speech impediment). I wish
> they'd post the source code
You can start with the source provided by Dave Wang, and work from there:
main(){char *a[]={"Illogical.","Balderdash.","Non sequitur.",
"Incorrect.","See what I mean?","Irrelevant.","Poppycock."};
for(;;)puts(a[rand()%7]);}
--
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 17 Jul 2000 20:02:33 -0500
"Mike Marion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Drestin Black wrote:
>
> > when I included variations I meant Basic in general. I've found a basic
> > language or something very similar to it on most platforms, in scripts
or
> > proper languages
>
> Ah, I see. There is a difference though. Unlike Perl, or most C which
> can simply be copied from platform to platform and run/compiled with no
> (or very few) changes.. VB is likely not going to port as easily.
excepting machine and OS UI specifics, most VB code ports rather easily.
Escaping the UI portions, which even C suffers identically from, moving the
logic sections of BASIC code from one compiler to another is usually not too
difficult. VB is a windows and Mac only product, so, yes, porting *VB* to
non-VB is going to be harder than Basic to Basic.
>
> > More powerful? Perhaps. But is it as easy to use as VB? I use VB cause I
can
> > crank out code in a hurry and with very little debugging and the tools
and
> > 3rd party support is fantastic.
>
> IMO, yes.. Perl is. Sure it gets harder when you're trying to do things
> that are more complicated, but it's the easiest language I've ever
> learned. Then again, I already understood regular expressions and such.
See, I just can't agree. I don't thnk Perl is easier to use. Not at all. I
think it's best we just disagreed for personal preference reasons here :)
>
> Support for perl is pretty impressive too. Probably due to how widely
> it's used.
A quick look in the programmers paradise catalog sure shows a lot of add-ins
and 3rd party support for VB. I do not see the same coverage for Perl. I
think Perl programs re-invent the wheel a bit more often than VB programmers
:)
>
> > show a programmer some VB code and I'll bet he can figure out what it's
> > doing quickly and usually pretty close to accurately. Show a programmer
some
> > C++ or Perl and not everyone one them could figure it out nearly as
easily
>
> There's a big difference between "most programmers could figure it out"
> and universal.
Yes... and I think VB is closer to universal than C++ or Perl which most
"good" programmers could figure out. I mean, "IF this THEN that ELSE
theotherthing kinda stuff is what VB proudly touts, no semicolons, and
brackets all over the place. Just write the code and get the job done. I
like that...
>
> > or quickly and perhaps not as accurately. THAT"S what I was getting at.
I
> > mean, be serious, whenever I see anyone writing "pseudocode" they
typically
> > write it in a short-hand of BASIC. Gee, it sure is easy to get that
>
> Bah.. I never use pseudocode. The only times I ever had were while in
> school when I had to hand in the different steps. I actually do a lot
> better if I just code, then test each part step by step.
I use pseudo code when working in teams on projects - writing code too
specifically will end up in everyone focusing on the exact language used and
sometimes getting hung up on issues aside from the topic at hand. You have
to have done a lot of team programming AND human(read: client) to programmer
(team) interfacing to find the real value in pseudo code... but to each his
own. Personally, I typically sit down and just write code straight out. But
not when I am developing with someone eses.
>
> > VBA for controlling other MS products. My time invested in learning VB
is
> > tranferable from App to app to type of application and need to another.
I
>
> Sure... in windows, since they all use VB or some variation. Sure
> doesn't help when you move over to a Unix system though.
But, if you aren't moving or have no intention to or have moved away from to
Windows - when windows is the predominant OS and only grows stronger, you do
not see this as a limitation. I never need to port a VB app to unix, never
happens. It's usually the unix apps that are porting to Windows...
>
> > use one language to get all the things I need done, from the lighest
weight
> > to most anything out there. I'm not trying to represent VB as any
ultimate
> > anything - it's just that it's a perfectly valid tool IMHO.
>
> No argument there.. it's a tool that works for you (and others). The
> way you said you don't care for C++, Java and Perl but do prefer VB made
> it seem as though you thought VB was a better language. Which, IMO is
> far from the truth.
VB better than C++? In sheer power and what they can do, C++ wins pretty
much hands down. In ease of use, I feel VB wins over all you listed. Java is
good but I think more hype than real innovation there. (by the way: I do not
like C# either). I would rather code in Delphi than Java. I am not a big fan
of perl but I can't see what perl does, better, faster, easier than VB?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:23:43 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
tinman wrote:
> Pardon, mais je ne comprende pas. "Foutre," bien sūr, mais qu'est-ce que
> ca va dire "dalle a foutre alors"? (ask I, hoping my french is good enough
> to have been clear.....)
"que dalle = que pouic = rien" = "bugger all, sweet fuck-all,
nothing"
And I see that this is turning into a conversation between two
newborn bots: the TinBot (who prefers to be known as a TinBorg),
and the MartyBot (who has not voiced any preferences yet).
------------------------------
From: Pan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:23:54 -0700
phil hunt wrote:
>
> I wasn't aware Applix Office was open source?
>
> (Or is it just their scripting lasnguage which is?)
I think that it's just shelf and a few of their lesser apps, though
according to their web site, they are also releasing some enhancements
to the GTK+ toolkit back to the open source community (no word as to
when), and as I said, they switched from proprietary amake to make.
They are now properly called vistasource:
www.vistasource.com
www.smartbeak.com
I met bernie thompson, the president of their company a few months ago.
Definitely one of the good guys in this industry.
--
Pan
www.la-online.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:25:32 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jacques Guy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> tinman wrote:
>
> > Pardon, mais je ne comprende pas. "Foutre," bien sūr, mais qu'est-ce que
> > ca va dire "dalle a foutre alors"? (ask I, hoping my french is good enough
> > to have been clear.....)
>
> "que dalle = que pouic = rien" = "bugger all, sweet fuck-all,
> nothing"
Thanks! Hadn't heard that one before.....
> And I see that this is turning into a conversation between two
> newborn bots: the TinBot (who prefers to be known as a TinBorg),
> and the MartyBot (who has not voiced any preferences yet).
Aw, if you want to have a real conversation with me, I'm game. I don't
expect real conversation from Dave, but I do from most others. ("
--
______
tinman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:21:51 -0400
From: sandrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it
Drestin Black wrote:
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [snippage]
> > To simply say that the fortune 500 use NT, so it's good, is false. The
> > fortune 500 companies can pay for the huge expenses that an NT
> > environment will incur in exchange for the "strategic" business
> > opportunities which the monopoly Microsoft provides. For the merely
> > normal sized companies that do not have the clout to grab Microsoft's
> > attention and good graces, NT is a disaster of unreliability and poor
> > cost/performance.
> >
>
> unreliability and poor cost/performance? You couldn't be more wrong and if
> you'd quit living in 3.51 days you'd know this. When is the last time anyone
> not a linux zealot ever saw a blue screen? I can't remember. It's been over
> a year I think. Crashes? That's what W98 is for, and even the beta of
> Windows ME is as stable as most would want. W2K is as stable as any *nix you
> could name.
Oh Please, Our local windos zealots running W2K and I am running RedHat
6.2,
Care to guess who has the longest uptime?
------------------------------
From: Pan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:25:44 -0700
Ray Chason wrote:
>
> salvador peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >BTW: I still get pissed when
> >I'm at work on my windows machine and :wq doesn't save and exit.
>
> http://www.vim.org/ is your friend. Be sure to get the 32-bit DOS version,
> and not the Win32 version, if you're running Windows 9x. (Yes, it can
> handle long filenames.) The Win32 version has some annoying bugs when used
> with Win9x, but works fine with NT.
Thanks, I installed it today! Now, is there anything you can do with
the backward /'s in dos? ;^)
--
Pan
www.la-online.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:29:08 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when T. Max Devlin would say:
>Said Christopher Browne in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when T. Max Devlin would say:
>>>Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>>T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>Said Peter Seebach in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>>>>>It depends an awful lot on the software. Windows has been sold to tens of
>>>>>>millions of people, many of whom didn't want it or need it. Niche market
>>>>>>software often sells for a fixed 25% cut over what it costs to write.
>>>>
>>>>>Only for creative values of "what it costs to write it".
>>>>
>>>>I dunno. If I have to pay a guy $N/hour to write a piece of software, and
>>>>I sell it to the one customer for $N*1.25/hour, I think that's a 25% markup.
>>>
>>>And what is the markup when you sell it to the next customer, without
>>>having to re-write it. The customer after that? The thousand later
>>>customers? The million customers over a three year period?
>>
>>That is a change of topics.
>>
>>The topic was _not_ that of a piece of software being sold to a million
>>customers, but rather of bespoke software written for a niche market
>>for _ONE CUSTOMER_.
>
>Says who?
"... and I sell it to the one customer for $N*1.25/hour..."
>>There are many organizations that sell software based on the bespoke
>>model, where there is _NO_ likelihood of a piece of software being
>>substantially reused because it was designed specifically to meet the
>>customer's requirements. That is the matter at hand, and it changing
>>the question means that the answers change.
>
>Quite convenient when you don't have the answer to the other question,
>don't you think? I'm sorry; nobody is discussing custom-developed
>single-use software, AFAIK. A single customer is not a niche market.
>The progression to a million customers is not necessary, several hundred
>make the point just as clear.
Nobody?
Based on the attributions up above, Peter Seebach is. And I am. And
with you as the third person with attributions, that means that two
out of the three people _are_ discussing custom-developed single-use
software.
I suppose that makes two of the people "nobody."
> [...]
>>>They were, until Microsoft changed the rules, I've heard. I don't know
>>>the specifics, but I have been told by accountants, who would be the
>>>ones who know, that the IRS allows software developers to treat fixed
>>>costs as variable costs. Essentially, they say that the five hundredth
>>>customer still required $N/hour, because they're still paying
>>>developers. But the developers are coming up with *new* products, so
>>>the company is essentially capitalizing on the margin.
>>
>>Which shows that you don't understand either accounting or taxation.
>>
>>What the IRS does is of little relevance here; the _point_ of the way
>>the economics of software works is that the cost of producing the software
>>generally represents a sunk cost. Once the software is sold once, there
>>is no additional development cost involved in selling it 100 times or
>>100,000 times.
>
>The IRS certainly does enter into it. By their acceptance of standard
>accounting practices in tax disputes, they set the rules for all
>accountants everywhere, tax related or otherwise. The description you
>provided seems counter to your point, so I must be missing something.
They _accept_ standard accounting reporting practices, which are
largely set by other organizations such as the AICPA. Thus, if you
want to talk about who it is that is _setting the policy_, the answer
is _NOT_ the IRS, but rather the AICPA.
"treating fixed costs as variable costs" is just so much nonsense
outside the scope of management accounting, which is an _INTERNAL_
matter that doesn't get reported to the government.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/>
"Criminal lawyer" is redundant.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 18 Jul 2000 01:36:50 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "abraxas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8knvdb$1tst$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> > oh, grow up and get a life child. You couldn't possibly know how much
> code
>> > I've done and copyrighted in my life. Yep, as in registered at the
> copyright
>> > office, not just a little (C) in some remarks somewhere.
>> >
>>
>> Yeah? Lets see some examples, dresden.
>>
>> Not some examples of VB (which anyone with a mouse can write, literally),
>> I want to see c, c++, fortran, etc. And ill know if you used 'visual *'
>> to write it, as will approx. half of this newsgroup.
>>
>
> oh give me a break... sigh... you know that no matter what I would write
> you'd just pick it apart and either call it shit or say it was copied. It's
> a no win scenario. I haven't used Fortran since college (or RPG and Cobol).
> C++ , it takes half a page to write hello world, fuck that. So... piss
> off...
>
>
In a word: you cant back up your claims.
Ok, six words.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:42:04 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
tinman wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jacques Guy
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And I see that this is turning into a conversation between two
> > newborn bots: the TinBot (who prefers to be known as a TinBorg),
> > and the MartyBot (who has not voiced any preferences yet).
> Aw, if you want to have a real conversation with me, I'm game. I don't
> expect real conversation from Dave, but I do from most others. ("
Ah, but *today* these NGs seem 95% populated by bot posts. The
Tholen (who looks more and more like a Hasan B. Mutlu), the Tim
Palmer,
the Man-In-Black... they seem to be spending every waking minute
of their lives watching for a post to counter with their pithy pearls
of wisdom. Z'ont vraiment que pouic a branler de toute la sainte
journee, ces gonzes. [gonze = gazier = mec]
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:39:01 -0400
Drestin Black wrote:
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [snippage]
> > To simply say that the fortune 500 use NT, so it's good, is false. The
> > fortune 500 companies can pay for the huge expenses that an NT
> > environment will incur in exchange for the "strategic" business
> > opportunities which the monopoly Microsoft provides. For the merely
> > normal sized companies that do not have the clout to grab Microsoft's
> > attention and good graces, NT is a disaster of unreliability and poor
> > cost/performance.
> >
>
> unreliability and poor cost/performance? You couldn't be more wrong and if
> you'd quit living in 3.51 days you'd know this. When is the last time anyone
> not a linux zealot ever saw a blue screen?
Actually, I saw one today with a dual processor domain controller.
> I can't remember. It's been over
> a year I think. Crashes? That's what W98 is for, and even the beta of
> Windows ME is as stable as most would want. W2K is as stable as any *nix you
> could name.
I don't buy it, I don't believe it, and nothing I have seen indicates
that anything has changed with Windows NT. This is the game MS always
plays. The mantra is "The current release is really stable, unlike that
last release." This has been done in the 3.1 -> 3.5, 3.5 -> 3.51, 3.51
-> 4.0, 4.0 -> W2K. (Ignoring all the crap about the SPs)
> SP1 is coming out in the next week and it addresses a handful of
> issues, most esoteric and minor and just add to the 5 9's of reliability W2K
> is already able to deliver. 64,000 bugs? even 19,000 bugs? ha! not even 4
> digits... and this from a 40 million line OS version .0 -- can you even find
> a single comprehensive list of all the bugs and "issues" in the linux
> kernel?
This is the same thing. W2K is real stable, as stable as any *nix, and
the next paragraph is about the next service pack which will make it
better.
Seriously, I know the mantra of the Linux people is "It'll be in the
next kernel...." that is still better than "This release is really
stable, unlike that last release." (until the next release or sp)
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 9x, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
Nepotism proves the foolishness of at least two people.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451743 (Tholen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:56:48 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jacques Guy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> tinman wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jacques Guy
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > And I see that this is turning into a conversation between two
> > > newborn bots: the TinBot (who prefers to be known as a TinBorg),
> > > and the MartyBot (who has not voiced any preferences yet).
>
> > Aw, if you want to have a real conversation with me, I'm game. I don't
> > expect real conversation from Dave, but I do from most others. ("
>
> Ah, but *today* these NGs seem 95% populated by bot posts. The
> Tholen (who looks more and more like a Hasan B. Mutlu), the Tim
> Palmer,
> the Man-In-Black... they seem to be spending every waking minute
> of their lives watching for a post to counter with their pithy pearls
> of wisdom. Z'ont vraiment que pouic a branler de toute la sainte
> journee, ces gonzes. [gonze = gazier = mec]
I can tell that if we continue, my french will broaden significantly.
Well, I have to say in regard to your mention of the infamous mutlu (btw,
did you know that there is a hotel mutlu,
http://www.hotelmutlu.com/mutlu.html?), I do wonder whether Dave is in
fact just a bot--not necessarily of the computer kind, perhaps rather a
reduced personality. ('
Personally, I enjoy Dave's conversations, in a sort of minimalist
bad-imitation-of-phillip-glass-wannabe sort of way.
So which of the advocacy groups do you call home? No reason to spam all
the others for a real conversation.
--
______
tinman
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What I've always said: Netcraft numbers of full of it
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 17 Jul 2000 20:01:52 -0600
"Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> so tell us, specifically, why servers running Windows could not do what the
> servers running linux @ Google do? Forget needing 6000 boxes. Why would the
> OS be a limitation? Impress us by showing ANY technical knowledge
> whatsoever!
Someone sounds grumpy because Microsoft was caught cheating on their
Windows 2000 launch TPC-C score. :>
(not that such meters are important, mind you)
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
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