Linux-Advocacy Digest #846, Volume #28 Sat, 2 Sep 00 23:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (Gary
Hallock)
Re: Why doesnt SuSE and RedHat wait until later this autum? (Grega Bremec)
Re: How low can they go...? (Gary Hallock)
Re: How low can they go...? (Gary Hallock)
Re: How low can they go...?
Re: How low can they go...? ("D'Arcy Smith")
Re: How low can they go...? ("D'Arcy Smith")
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Jim Richardson)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Jim Richardson)
Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools (Bob Germer)
Re: How low can they go...? ("D'Arcy Smith")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:20:45 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Heisenberg's principle is about subatomic particles, not the
> response to "Can you tell me the name of the current Vice President
> of the country?"
>
Yes, but the principal is the same. The act of measurement affects the
results. If you honestly believe that someone will answer truthfully and to
the best of their abilities when asked a question by Jay Leno with the cameras
running and when the person being asked knows that the whole purpose is to
provide stupid and funny answers, then you need a reality check.
> Why would he need to, when there are so many genuinely stupid
> people roaming around?
It is not a question of need. The topic came up as an example of how ignorant
and poorly educated the American public is today. Jay asking questions on the
street provides no evidence for that. It is entertainment, that's all. To
attribute any thing more to it is ridiculous.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grega Bremec)
Subject: Re: Why doesnt SuSE and RedHat wait until later this autum?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:23:51 GMT
...and David M. Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> used the keyboard:
<snip>
>
>I think that's a rap they probably want to overcome. You just don't run a
>pre-release kernel on a production server, and that's their main customer
>base.
>
Seems like a userbase quite demanding for a bunch of pre-release
software, don't you think so? Besides, that's the customer base that's
strongest in bucks, not in numbers, and every customer counts there.
How do they expect to keep such a userbase with crappy x.0 releases?
And to produce yet another rhetorical question: Wouldn't it be halfway
through to eliminating that "rap" if they clearly drew a line between
stable and unstable releases, sort of like Debian did (only in their
own RedHat-tish way, of course, still selling pretty boxes, but
cheaper and with a big "UNSTABLE" sticker across them)?
Cheers,
--
Grega Bremec
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gbsoft.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:40:18 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> Boy, that sounds like a pretty strong statement, 'jedi'. I'm wondering
> if you can back it up. Let me try:
>
> The software code used for DVD encoding is certainly protectable as
> copyrighted work. As such, the owner can restrict who copies the work,
> and thus who owns a legal copy. So how can DVD not warrant copyright
> protection?
>
Please explain how DVD encoding restricts who copies the work. Really,
I'd like to know.
Gary
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:44:10 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
JS/PL wrote:
> "T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Its a nightmare, to be sure. I'm afraid its worse than anyone's even
> > begun to realize. (Well, anyone that still supports Microsoft in any
> > large degree.)
>
> You support them to a large degree. You use their operating system by
> choice.
Ouch! I have often wondered how a self proclaimed Linux advocate like Max
refuses to use Linux and knows nothing about it.
Gary
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:47:24 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
JS/PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > The freedom to select any computer hardware that fits their needs
without
> > having to pay for preloaded software that they not need or use.
>
> This freedom already exists.
Without having to pay for the preloaded software?
This is not possilbe at this time. You can avoid paying for preload by
building you own computers (as I do), or go to some specality distributer to
purchase the system. But what about the consumer who go the the local major
computer dealer to say, CompUSA, to purchase a prebuilt computer. They
locate the "perfect" computer but it comes with preloaded software. You see
the key term in my earlier post was "any computer".
> > It provides the consumer the freedom to use whatever OS they want that
is
> > compatible with their choice of hardware.
>
> This freedom already exists.
With out paying for preload software for "their choice of hardware".
> > It would provide more freedom for other OS devlopers to compete on the
> same
> > footing as those that are now having their products preloaded on most of
> > today's computers.
>
> We're talking about consumers....
You really can't see the benefit for the consumer of having more competition
in the OS market? Fine, in that case I will spell it out. More developers
providing more competing OS would cause the customers loyality to not be
taken for granted by the devlopers. More competitiion (discounting
collusion) would lead to low prices and better quality products.
> But the software industry has about the
> lowest barrier to entry of any product in existence.
Tell that to DRI.
> > It would mean lower costs for those who have no need for preloaded
> software
> > without having to build their own systems or going to some alternate
> > distributer.
>
> Not necessarily. It might mean higher costs when the OEM suddenly has to
> provide support for 100 different operating systems.
Support for the software should be supported by the company or organization
that writes it or integrates it into a distribution, not the OEM.
>
> >
> > ...and there are more but this is good for a start.
> >
> >
> Let's have more then...
I will let you digest this first.
------------------------------
From: "D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:57:25 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said D'Arcy Smith in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> If you aren't at liberty to choose then a technical
> >> viewpoint is quite meaningless actually.
> >You are able to choose - license the technology... if cost is prohibitive
> >to you then so be it.
> [obviously inappropriate sig delimiter snipped]
No it was obviously not a sig delimiter - it was a delimeter
for a totaly separate thought.
> >That said yes I am all for having a revered engineered GPL system
> >for DVDs.
> Huh?
Basic conversation thus far:
- Can get a system without Windows
- No you can't (and haven't been able to for some time)
And even if you could what would you run on it?
- Linux, Solaris, BeOS - MS isn't a natural monopoly
- Word, Excel formats are MS proprietary as is DVD
- They are documented - and DVD isn't MS
- Not documented - and DVD is a proprietary encoding
that maintains the MS monopoly.
- DVD isn't controlled by MS.
- MPAA "restrains trade" & MS benefits from that
MPAA doesn't want the algorithm publicly known
DVD support on Linux is *illegal*.
- DVD on Linux is not illegal - license it
- List of Linux platforms...
- your point would be?
- Capitalism without reparability
- technical not moral...
- no choice means technical doesn't matter
- you have a choice - license it - cost is not a technical thing.
- huh?
..darcy
------------------------------
From: "D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:58:42 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >Ah... well too bad I am only looking at it from a technical
> >view point then......................
> Yes, I'd say that's too bad. For your argument, that is. The
> discussion is an ethical one, not a technical one. The question isn't
> "how do we get permission"; the question is "why would we need
> permission?"
There is nothing in the conversation thus far to indicate that it is
an ethical question... see other posting for the summary of the
conversation thus far.
..darcy
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:36:10 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 02 Sep 2000 08:36:46 -0400,
Rick, in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>"Joe R." wrote:
>>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rick
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >At the present time, public schools are massively under-funded. Class
>> > >
>> > > Yet those private schools seem to do more with less.
>> > >
>> >
>> > No, they dont. Private schools have MORE $/student than public schools.
>> > Public schools have always done more eith less, especially K-12.
>>
>> I think you'd have to back that up.
>>
>
>Well... Im not going to go do all the research for you... but I'll tell
>you what to look for.
>
>Check the tuition prices for the private schools. Then check your local
>schoolboard budget. You will see that the private schools have more
>money.
for comparisons of private school costs, with public, see
http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-025.html
for details. Please note that they offer sources and references, which
you seem unable (or unwilling) to do.
Oh, quick summary is, private schools cost about half what the public schools
do per student.
>
>You can also check what one FTE 9full time eqivalency) is in your home
>state. That is the amount the state gives the school, or district per
>student. Its not very much. The commercials now playing showing the
>school teacher buying her own supplies is very real.
>
>> At one time, I saw figures that the average expenditure for private
>> schools was less than for public schools. Your assertion certainly isn't
>> obvious enough to pass without evidence.
>>
>
>What average expenditure?
About $6500 for public, and bout $3200 for private.
--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 20:13:17 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:47:40 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED], in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>On 01 Sep 2000 22:01:05 -0600, Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
>>
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Quite often, government assistance programs have the
>>> end result of pushing you down farther, rather than allowing
>>> you to be elevated or helped up for a time.
>>>
>>> [deletia]
>>>
>>> US Welfare programs specifically discourage upward mobility.
>>
>>One only has to look to the sad state of the Native American
>>"reservations" to see the truth in this.
>
> ...too true. I had forgotten those cousins.
>
>[deletia]
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the possibility of
> nationalizing Linux or one of the desktops for a sylabary
> based alphabet & language?
>
>--
You mean something like written Cherokee? I don't think that's sylabic.
I thought it was phonetic. But IANAL(inguist)
--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Public v. Private Schools
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:09:04 GMT
On 09/02/2000 at 02:12 PM,
Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > My wife was a teacher in an inner city public school in a rust belt city
> > for 31 years. I kept many of her class records for her on my computers
> > beginning in 1984. I have every class list from that time until she
> > retired two years ago. AT NO TIME DID SHE EVER HAVE MORE THAN 22 STUDENTS.
> > In five of those years her class size was less than 15. Any time ANY
> > teacher in that district had more than 17 students, he or she had a FULL
> > TIME, qualified, classroom aide.
> >
> I wouldbeinterested to know what the teacher/student ratio is NOW.
Exactly the same as when Rae retired 2 years ago. In fact, she is filling
in for the first 6 weeks as a long term sub for a teacher who just had a
baby. The class has 19 students and a full time aide.
> > Conversely, the four private schools in the area, had average class sizes
> > of 25 or more students. Two of those schools were run by Roman Catholic
> > parishes, one by a Black Church, and one by the Episcopal Diocese. Tuition
> > at the first three never exceeded $500 per student per semester. The
> > Episcopal school, St. Mary's Academy and Doane Hall, charged about $7,000
> > per student per year. Of course, even that was more than $2,000 a year
> > LESS than the Burlington City cost per pupil which exceeded $9,000 per
> > year in 1997.
> >
> How much money, above tuition, was provided by the churches, and where
> are your per student costs for the private schools?
The cost per student for the private schools is the tuition. They get no
other funding.
> > Now, Mr. Big Spender, tell us just how the public schools of Burlington
> > City, NJ are under-funded when they garner far more per pupil than private
> > schools such as St. Mary's which is ENTIRELY SELF-SUSTAINING and has to
> > pay every teacher, etc. BTW, St. Mary's only hires state certified
> > teachers as do the public schools and pays as much or more than the City
> > schools.
> >
> Im sure the public schools only employ certified teachers also. You seem
> to think the public school system has money to burn. It does not. It
> only has its yearly allocation.
The school board passes its own budget which is submitted to the voters
for approval. If not approved, the City Council reviews it and passes it
as an ordinance.
> > Take also two other private schools in the immediate area, Moorestown
> > Friends and Westfield Friends. Both are fully self-sustaining. Both are
> > top rated schools.
> >
> > At Westfield, where class size is limited to 14, tuition from K-4 is
> > $6,000 per year. From 5-8 it is $7,000. However, each additional student
> > from the same family gets a $1,000 reduction. All teachers are
> > state-certified.
> >
> > At Moorestown, the class size is limited to 18 in the elementary grades
> > and 15 in the secondary school. Tuition is comparable to that of
> > Westfield. Again, all teachers are fully state-certified.
> >
> > Having served as a school board member in our home community, I can tell
> > you where the difference lies. It is in ADMINISTRATION. The City Schools
> > have more clerical employees in the Board Office than St. Mary's and
> > either Westfield or Moorestown COMBINED. Burlington City High School has
> > more administrators for its <1,000 pupils than Moorestown, Westfield, St.
> > Pauls, All Saints, and St. Mary's combined which educate well over 3,000
> > total pupils.
> >
> If you served onthe school board, then you should know most public
> school shave those clerical workers to process the mountains of
> paperwork that are required.
Yep because of the massive federal aid programs passed by the Democraticly
controlled congresses from 1950 to 1996.
> > Oh, and by the way. In the City Schools, pupils must pay for their lunch.
> > Those from low and moderate income families get reduced or free lunch
> > which is paid for by a Federal Program and is "off budget". At Moorestown,
> > Westfield, and St. Mary's, lunch is included in the tuition.
> >
> ... and what are the additional funding sources for these schools. What
> is the FTE, or per student/per student funding of the private schools?
They are self sustaining from tuition. Period. The Quakers have no central
organization like the Roman Catholics. St. Mary's gets the services of a
priest from the Diocese of Trenton for the chapel services once a week and
on special days. Otherwise we provide no funding to St. Mary's
Academy/Doane Hall.
> > Under funded? Not by a long shot.
> Fine, fine. Where you are, the public schools have barrels of money and
> they are run by incompetent administrators.. why didnt you do something
> while you were on the board?
I did. We cut 11 teaching positions in subjects which attracted fewer than
15 students, contracted out driver education to a state approved private
company, eliminated 14 subject "supervisors" (qualified teachers who were
"department heads" - two in departments with only 2 teachers), eliminated
14 supervisors' secretaries, made discipline the responsibility of the
assistant principals in the high school and junion high school, contracted
out the cafeteria to a catering service, and contracted out janitorial to
a private company. In 2 years we lowered school taxes by 9% and saw test
on the CAT's rise 8%. We also lengthened the school day from 8 periods to
9.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
Finishing in 2nd place makes you first loser
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: "D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:09:29 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said D'Arcy Smith in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> [...]
> >> >So no technical ones. Technical ones present a "barrier".
> >> No, prohibitive cost presents a barrier.
> >You assume that the only people interested in getting a DVD player
> >onto a system have no money... not necessarily valid... also not
> >(directly) something you can blame MS on.
> I presume you mean "blame on MS", and the kicker is that we can.
Same thing. And no you cannot.
> We
> aren't, necessarily, but the fact of the matter is that there isn't
> really much of a free market in software these days, because of the
> damaging impact, both direct and indirect, of Microsoft's criminal
> behavior. But that's beside the point; 'jedi' never mentioned
> Microsoft, though I did.
Please note that I said "directly".
..darcy
------------------------------
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