Linux-Advocacy Digest #431, Volume #29 Tue, 3 Oct 00 18:13:09 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop (Glitch)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: How low can they go...? (Roberto Alsina)
Re: How low can they go...? ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop (Glitch)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 17:41:44 -0400
From: Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
[big snip]
>
> My E-Vectra has been running 2000 since the day I got it, and I've never had
> a OS system crash, ever. I don't know how Linux can be more stable than
> that.
obviously you never touched it after you turned it on the first time.
HOw can linux be more stable than that? Well, Linux stays up for months
at a time. I assume you just got your Vectra a week ago?
>
> Try running Netscape on RedHat 6.2 and see how stable Linux is then.
> Sometimes, a crash will bring down all of Linux and you get the famous
> segment dumps.
>
> > 3.you have a lot (if you are a"experienced home user") more flexibility
> with
> > linux than win2k
> > more powerfull tools and features to work with
>
> I disagree. Could you name the tools and features?
>
> > thats just 3 quick but big reasons, please come back for more!
>
> Unfortunately, none of them qualify... come back and try again though!
>
> > > Linux is a promising product, and I suppose it needs its supporters.
> > > But for the rest of us, we just want to be productive.
> >
> > productive on linux?
> > well oracle, mysql for databases staroffice or wordperfect 2000 for office
> > work
>
> Try MS SQL server + Office 2000 + ASP + DCOM + blah and more blah
>
> > netscape, opera for internet browsing,
>
> IE is better than both, and you can get netscape and opera on Win32 which
> have better versions anyway
>
> > gimp for advanced image editing...
>
> gimp? sheesh... even paint shop pro is better than Gimp, and then there is
> adobe photoshop for serious work. Not to say that Gimp sucks, but it isn't
> as good as PSP or Photoshop.
>
> > and more ...and more
> > (this is just whats come out of my head right now, im sure that there is a
> > lots of folks around to
> > tell you even more about that part)
>
> Face it. Linux apps. are inferior to their Windows counterparts in *most*
> cases. Yes, there are exceptions, but not usually.
>
> -Todd
>
> > /IL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> >
> >
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 3 Oct 2000 21:39:47 GMT
On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>the size of my dick so you're not going to make me do something stupid
>>by insulting my 'manhood'". In fact, I don't give a rat's ass about my
>>"manhood" either; I transcend such petty and moronic things as gender
>>and ethnicity.
Reminds me of a quote from a rock musician --
"I'm not a man, I'm not a woman. I'm GOD"
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:46:37 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> Trading the stock of a corporation is not an action of the corporation, unless
>> the corporation is selling or buying. If the corporation is selling or buying,
>> some employee of it took the decision to use a certain algorithm to do so. The
>> selling and buying is an action of that employee.
>
>No, it's not. It's an action of the computer system left in place by a
>consultant who has long since been fired, passed away and is now rotting
>in his grave.
So what? The actions of a person can last longer than the person himself.
If I kill a person, he will stay dead after I am dead, and his death will still
be my action.
>> >Assembly line full of robots doing spot welding.
>>
>> Someone programmed the robots, someone designed the robots, someone decided "we
>> need a lot of robots welding things". All those someones cause the robots
>> welding. The welding is an action of them.
>
>You're a fucking moron. Those "someones" are not part of the corporation
>(they may not even exist anymore) but the robot is!
So, the robot is welding because it's his will to weld, you say. Excuse me
while I snort.
>> >Email support. Web sites On and on and on..
>>
>> Again, easily reducible to human actions.
>
>Not reducible *at all*! Not anymore than evolutionary theory is
>reducible to physics.
Indeed it is. Specifically to random mutations, probably caused by replication
errors, in occasion caused by radiation.
>> Because the effector is a tool, it
>> doesn't mean the tool is the actor. When you hammer a nail, you are hammering a
>> nail, not the hammer.
>
>And if the hammer falls down on a nail without your knowledge
>then are you still hammering it because you left it in a position
>such that it might fall?
Let's put it this way: if you put your mother's vase in the edge of the table,
and it crashes, is it your action of the floor's?
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 3 Oct 2000 21:43:54 GMT
On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>> You would be surprised just how cranky end users get.
>>
>>Yeah, like *whom*? Me and a whole dozen other people?
>
>You should release an application aimed at end users sometime, and have actual
>end users use it.
Did you get complaints about krn being a pig ? ( I certainly complained
about it in the privacy of my own home ... ;-) If the users complained to
you about that, I fear to even comtemplate what they might do to someone
who subjected them to an operating system written in SmallTalk.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Date: 3 Oct 2000 21:46:37 GMT
On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:17:24 -0400, David T. Johnson wrote:
>
>
>Marty wrote:
>> > > > Congratulations to all of you.
>> > >
>> > > He's not only the club President, he's also a member!
>> >
>> > Your typical garbled, illogical, nonsensical comment.
>> > Maybe you should do some work on that "Grad School in Texas" thread.
>>
>> Reading comprehension problems? How ironic, given you grammatically
>> incorrect statements.
>
>Your 'given you grammatically incorrect statements' is itself
>grammatically incorrect which is even more ironic. But what should
Now that's what I call a Tholen-war.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:49:58 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> You are a confused person. There is no contradiction. For example: the tool to
>> predict the behaviour of a molecule is not the right tool to predict the
>> behaviour of a gas. Yet, the behaviour of the gas, is reducible to the
>> behaviour of the molecules.
>
>So do you now claim that talking about the behaviour of molecules is
>meaningless since it always reduces down to atoms? That's your position
>with respect to corporations.
I don't say that the behaviour of corporations is meaningless. Yet again, you
claim I do.
>> What is foolish is applying the wrong tool to the task. Just like the gas has
>> no spin, the groups are not psycopaths.
>
>If gas has no spin, then what's a tornado?
Spin in the quantum sense.
>> >And your opinion matters because you're a sociologist, right?
>>
>> No, but neither are you, right?
>
>Except I'm not relying on my own opinion.
References, please.
>> >Joe Blow the employee is not the same as Joe Blow the person.
>>
>> They are the same person. Are they not?
>
>Joe Blow the employee is not a person at all!
Joe Blow is still a person while he works. he has not lost his consciousness
into some sort of corporate hive-mind.
> And in the rare
>cases where employees have rights in the USA, the fact that
>they're not the same rights acrued from being a human being
>means that they're *not* the same person.
Employees have rights. You might like them to have more rights, but they do
have them. And what you say is patently false. All human rights apply to people
while they work. You can't kill them, you can't torture them, you can't coherce
their religion, and so forth.
>> >Equivalent to: All actions of cars are actions of atoms, therefore cars
>> >do not exist as individual objects.
>>
>> I don't say corporations don't exist, so it's obviously not equivalent.
>
>Then how about: cars don't move since car movement is always reducible to
>atom movement.
If the atoms of the car are moving, in average, in a certain direction, the car
is moving.
>> Nonsense. You should read what I write, instead of listening to voices in your
>> head.
>
>You obviously never read what you write so why should I?
A non-answer, of course.
>> >And we know this because you are a psychologist, right?
>>
>> I am not. I am giving a laymen's opinion. However, I am willing to bet you are
>> not a psychologist either, and that the definition you gave was not written by
>> a psychologist, was it?
>
>E.T. Barker, MD.
>B. Shipton, PhD.
Which one are you?
>You're such an arrogant and ignorant asshole. I don't care about either
>on its own, but I can't stand their combination.
Then stop replying to me.
>> >In theory? Yes, it could decide to become a cooperative. In /practice/
>> >this is not possible.
>>
>> I don't think that's even legally possible. And no, I am not a lawyer.
>
>A corporation can buy back all of its stock and its board can pass
>regulations mandating the distribution of this stock to its employees
>on an equal basis.
Only if that doesn't break their fiduciary duty, I'd say. Since the corporation
would have to provide value to the stockholders while buying back all the
stock, the corporation would probably self-destruct.
> It would then be a cooperative in every sense of
>the word except the meaningless sense of being registered with the
>state as a cooperative and of course a greatly increased chance of
>degenerating back into a corporation.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:55:13 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>> One of the users favourite complaints is regarding escalating system
>> requirements. It seems that "Dick" is listening more to him self than
>> he is the "end users". Which is hardly surprising, because I've yet to
>> see him listen to anyone besides himself in this thread.
>
>I would if you or Roberto had anything worth listening to (modulo the
>isolated exception of getting a book on language patterns -- exactly
>what I've been missing actually).
If you are not listening to what I say, what exactly are you replying to in
all those posts? Voices in your head?
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:48:33 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Bobby D. Bryant
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Mon, 02 Oct 2000 21:53:38 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Todd wrote:
[snip]
>I thought it didn't crash?
It doesn't. But, were it ever to crash, even though it doesn't,
the forward-thinking engineers at Microsoft, who are always
innovative, helpful, and efficient, have included tools and options
to help you in that case, even though the BSOD (or is it green now?)
will never happen.
:-) :-) :-)
[rest snipped]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random cynical sarcasm here
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:15 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> >Yeah, like *whom*? Me and a whole dozen other people?
>>
>> You should release an application aimed at end users sometime, and have actual
>> end users use it.
>
>I will, I'm just not deluded enough to believe that I will gain many users.
>Since there are thousands of Unix users and probably *none* of them will
>become *my* users (except for me), just who is it that I should listen to?
Whoever you expect to use it. But until you actually release it, you should
listen to noone. That probably means you will never listen to anyone, but hey,
at least you'll have quiet.
>> >Wrong. Some APIs are so transparent that they're never perceived as APIs.
>> >Of course, this doesn't apply to any part of Unix.
>>
>> That doesn't make them not APIs.
>
>It makes them not count as APIs.
Because you say so? Excuse me if I'm not too impressed.
> My implying that increasing the number
>of APIs increases the complexity of the system is a simplification that
>generally holds because Unix/C++/Java people can't even *conceive* of
>transparent APIs.
Opinion. A pretty popular thing to have.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:02:01 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Nobody escribió:
>On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 20:20:56 GMT, "James A. Robertson"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>>
>>> "James A. Robertson" wrote:
>>> >
>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > > > I don't believe you have any grounds at all for assuming that "they
>>> > > will
>>> > > > probably think the accusation is true." You'd have to provide some
>>> > > > evidence that someone's real 'good name' can actually be damaged by
>>> > > some
>>> > > > *anonymous* person on Usenet calling them a racist, an alcoholic, or a
>>> > > > pedophile. I don't know of anyone with a good name that would be
>>> > > > damaged by such obviously absurd accusations.
>>> > >
>>> > > Well, actually, a good friend of mine was in a situation (outside
>>> > > usenet) where someone made a false accusation that he was a racist. His
>>> > > lawyer managed to sort this out and it had to be done quickly, because
>>> > > in communities, well, people like gossips. Specially nasty gossips. And
>>> > > then people will avoid to be associated with you, because, well, there
>>> > > is a sort of suspicious black cloud over you.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > Note the term lawyer. If you felt wronged by JTK, then a civil court is
>>> > the appropriate forum.
>>>
>>> Well, Yann doesn't live in the same country and the forum is
>>> trans-national, so it's not a practical suggestion.
>>>
>>
>>If a Spanish lawyer can bring charges against Pinochet in Britain, it's
>>possible.
>>It's also the proper procedure.
>>
>
>He didn't bring charges against Pinochet in Britain, it was a request
>for extradition.
Not to mention that death threats are hardly something for which there are
extraterritorial laws.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:50:39 +1000
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:zgrC5.3895$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> > >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > [...]
> > >Jesus, Max. Stop chianging your mind so much. I'm starting to suspect
> that
> > >you're actually disociative.
> >
> > Stop trying to hand-wave the fact that you can't manage to understand
> > what I wrote; other people don't seem to have as much trouble. I
> > haven't changed my mind, my remarks, or my opinions (save to lower my
> > opinion of you) since this conversation began; merely the comments I've
> > made to express them. You fail to grasp the meaning of my words, and
> > then think its appropriate to ridicule me for your failure?
>
> Just let us know after the doctors have "cured" you. I'm not going to
pull
> any more hair out trying to understand your incomprehensible babble.
Oh, come on Erik, it's much more entertaining to get Max so exasperated by
constantly requesting he prove his outlandish claims so that he killfiles
you :).
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:04:13 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Donovan Rebbechi escribió:
>On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>>the size of my dick so you're not going to make me do something stupid
>>>by insulting my 'manhood'". In fact, I don't give a rat's ass about my
>>>"manhood" either; I transcend such petty and moronic things as gender
>>>and ethnicity.
>
>Reminds me of a quote from a rock musician --
> "I'm not a man, I'm not a woman. I'm GOD"
Just in case, Richard wrote the stuff you quoted, not me ;-)
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:04:50 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Donovan Rebbechi escribió:
>On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>>> You would be surprised just how cranky end users get.
>>>
>>>Yeah, like *whom*? Me and a whole dozen other people?
>>
>>You should release an application aimed at end users sometime, and have actual
>>end users use it.
>
>Did you get complaints about krn being a pig ? ( I certainly complained
>about it in the privacy of my own home ... ;-)
Sure. But try 0.6.12. It's a lean mean posting machine ;-)
Just don't look at the ps output, it's skewed because of mmap.
>If the users complained to
>you about that, I fear to even comtemplate what they might do to someone
>who subjected them to an operating system written in SmallTalk.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:07:46 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Donovan Rebbechi escribió:
>Now that's what I call a Tholen-war.
Prove it if you think you can. Balderdash!
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:06:59 -0400
From: Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
>
> If you think carefully, though, you will come up with some. Unfortunately,
> the uses are specialized and doesn't include general desktop use.
And the price of W2k is within the range of a general desktop user? yeah
right.
>
> You just can't beat Windows 2000 -- it is simply the best all around general
> purpose OS out there today.
and the most expensive
------------------------------
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