Linux-Advocacy Digest #533, Volume #29 Mon, 9 Oct 00 01:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("James A. Robertson")
Re: The Power of the Future! (joseph)
Re: Hotmail has been down for at least 12 hours on the East Coast ("sandrews")
Re: The Power of the Future! ("JS/PL")
Re: The Power of the Future! (joseph)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (joseph)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (joseph)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Mike Byrns)
Re: The Power of the Future! (joseph)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Bob Germer)
Re: Hotmail been down most of the day ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: Hotmail been down most of the day ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Loren Petrich)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Loren Petrich)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 04:21:01 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> >
> >On the contrary, Win32 is easy enough for even a fairly junior
> >programmer to master after a reading of Petzold. I know because I
> >started my career programming in Win16, and Win32. For that matter
> >the latter simplified things a great deal.
>
> You're still looking at it from the wrong side. We're talking about
> implementing Win32 from the OS side, not using it for application
> development.
>
It is not the OS vendor's responsibility to make their system API's
easily clonable. In fact it has typically been seen as contrary to
their interests. The various Unix vendors, for instance, have <yet> to
create a common Unix standard set of system API's.
<snip>
>
> Win32 is a documentation of 'whatever the hell random and bizarre
> anti-competitive crap' that Microsoft writes, and then retroactively
> faces the industry with trying to use.
>
How is the win32 API anti-competitive? Saying so doesn't make it so.
At the time it was introduced, keep in mind that the MacOS and OS/2 had
been out for longer periods of time (not to mention BSD, which had been
around forever).
> >If Microsoft is a lousy, anticompetitive company, or if Win32 doesn't
> >work on other platforms -- neither one of those makes the API
> >unworkable.
>
> I didn't describe it as unworkable; that was Simon Cooke, who was,
> characteristically, building a straw man. I said it was crap. And both
> of those things you mentioned are the same thing, and the reason Win32
> is crap. The evidence it is crap is the fact that WINE can't even get
> the simplest text edit functions of the API to work, though any
> programmer can get it to work in their apps using any flavor or Windows.
> This indicates clearly, I think, the fact that the Microsoft's software
> is crap, and the Win32 API was designed to support anti-competitive
> strategies, not good software. Its crap.
>
How? All it indicates is that mapping the Win32 API to the X Window
System API is hard.
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
> ======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
>
> Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
>
> http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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--
James A. Robertson
Technical Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:23:50 -0400
From: joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
JS/PL wrote:
> "Dolly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Mike Byrns wrote:
> > >
> > > Dolly wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Only problem is, according to IDC, Windows numbers
> > > > are slipping backward... ie: -3%, -15%, -10% (9X/ME,
> > > > IIShit, NT/2K) or perhaps the second one was -13%
> > > > on iDC and -15% on some web server monitoring
> > > > and stats page... and declining.
> > >
> > > You're going to post a link to back that claim up right? I'd be
> interested to see
> > > their sources and methodologies and the sites sampled. I think it's
> funny that
> > > with that kind of news to report, none of the media outlets have picked
> it up.
> > > Sounds like bullshit to me but I'll retract that when that link is
> posted.
> >
> >
> > Here's one link
> >
> > http://serverwatch.internet.com/netcraft/200009netcraft.html
> >
> > IIS had made 34% at one time... check the back links.
> > Steadily declining (thank god!!!) Every month a little
> > more downhill. I think you can still check Jan 1999
> > directly on Netcraft's page...
> Well Dolly, it's common knowlege that more sites are running on Apache
> especially since it seems to be the default offering from most webhosting
> services.
Apparently web hosting sites aren't using Windows2000.
> Watch for IIs to make gains. Oh- and MS is now offering free 180 day
> evaluations of Advanced Server. I look for that to help out the numbers.
What happens on day 181?
------------------------------
From: "sandrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hotmail has been down for at least 12 hours on the East Coast
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:22:07 -0500
In article <2q7E5.785$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i meddelandet
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> What kind of crap is this?
>>
>> claire
>
> hehehehe....*nix is that cind of crap... ;)
>
>
Actually, ms has moved it to windog 2000! the jokes on you
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 00:26:03 -0400
Reply-To: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Apparently web hosting sites aren't using Windows2000.
Apparently.
> > Watch for IIs to make gains. Oh- and MS is now offering free 180 day
> > evaluations of Advanced Server. I look for that to help out the numbers.
>
> What happens on day 181?
You install the full version :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:38:26 -0400
From: joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
Drestin Black wrote:
>
> >
> > Only problem is, according to IDC, Windows numbers
> > are slipping backward... ie: -3%, -15%, -10% (9X/ME,
> > IIShit, NT/2K) or perhaps the second one was -13%
> > on iDC and -15% on some web server monitoring
> > and stats page... and declining.
> >
> > Dolly
>
> I think you read wrong, those were increases not decreases. IN fact, the
> Windows market continues to grow and shift.
The Windows OS market is a mess. That's one of the reasons server side
computing is so popular. You can ignore the OS version when deploying a
service. It's a crime that the best upgrade path to W2K is buying new
computer.
[...]
> ..in fact, they document that linux's share
> is growing at the cost of the "other" unix share, not the NT/w2k share. This
> is typical, IDC reports that that is what happens whenever some new, popular
> fragmentation of Unix occurs. People switch aliances and the unix share is
> redivided - but it's constantly losing to NT, now W2K.
LINUX doesn't eat into UNIX share - that's why the UNIX vendors endorse LINUX.
The MS camp whines about LINUX and BSD.
Look at the whining to figure out who's the obvious loser.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:47:15 -0400
From: joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Lars Träger wrote:
> joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Lars Träger wrote:
> >
> > > In the last years Apple has made the logo much bigger than before. Now
> > > Macs are still used and quite recognizable in movies, but the logo is
> > > often taped over. If Apple would pay "Big Bucks" to get Macs in the
> > > picture, wouldn't they ask that the logo were recognizable?
> >
> > Moives need props. Macs have been awarded for their design. It makes sense
> > they'd appear in movies sans the icon - the icon being covered indicates the
> > producers did not want to provide free advertising but they did want the mac
> > as a prop.
>
> Tell that to the people saying Apple pays "Big Bucks" to get Macs in
> movies, and that no moviemaker would put Macs in if they didn't get
> paid.
>
I'm trying to by following on your post with some common sense reasons including
the fact the iMac has won product design awards.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:50:41 -0400
From: joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
JS/PL wrote:
> "Lars Träger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Lars Träger wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the last years Apple has made the logo much bigger than before. Now
> > > > Macs are still used and quite recognizable in movies, but the logo is
> > > > often taped over. If Apple would pay "Big Bucks" to get Macs in the
> > > > picture, wouldn't they ask that the logo were recognizable?
> > >
> > > Moives need props. Macs have been awarded for their design. It makes
> sense
> > > they'd appear in movies sans the icon - the icon being covered indicates
> the
> > > producers did not want to provide free advertising but they did want the
> mac
> > > as a prop.
> >
> > Tell that to the people saying Apple pays "Big Bucks" to get Macs in
> > movies, and that no moviemaker would put Macs in if they didn't get
> > paid.
>
> I agree.
> Apple makes an excellent computer "prop". Like those cardboard TV's down at
> the furniture store.
> On another front, since hardly anyone uses them, it's much easier to pass
> off a bogus GUI for the movie viewer to follow. Some of them are quite
> ridiculous. Like the one where the "runner" logs onto the internet and the
> "chaser" sitting at his own computer suddenly knows the location of the
> runner, complete with a real-time satellite video feed of said runner (1500
> miles away). Then just by coincidence there's 40 secret troops in complete
> uniform and weaponry ready to chase the runner who's (by some incredible
> stroke of luck) located just a block away from them.
Get a life.
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <"mike.byrns"@technologist,.com>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 04:59:00 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> Said Mike Byrns <"mike.byrns"@technologist,.com> in
> comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >
> >> Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >> >
> >> >"mike burrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >news:y%MD5.31474$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >> In comp.lang.c Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> > Wine runs Office? Wow, what a claim.
> >> >>
> >> >> > A quick trip to the wine database shows that there isn't much that
> >> >really
> >> >> > runs under Wine. The highest rating for Office 97 is 3. This rating is
> >> >> > described as "3 -- Sufficient functionality for noncritical work.
> >> >Occasional
> >> >> > crashes okay, as are weird setup problems, required patches, or missing
> >> >> > major functionality. Alpha quality." Other reviews gave it even lower
> >> >marks.
> >> >> > The highest review given to Word 2000 is 1: "1 -- Loads without
> >> >crashing.
> >> >> > Good enough for a screenshot." And the highest review of Office 2000
> >> >rates
> >> >> > it 0: "0 -- Totally nonfunctional. Crashes on load."
> >> >>
> >> >> you have, of course, conveniently ignored that the most recent review of
> >> >> Microsoft Word is from six months ago with a comment saying "maybe in 3
> >> >> months it works".
> >> >>
> >> >> of course everybody knows that Wine doesn't run Office well, but lying
> >> >> (albeit by omission) doesn't help anybody.
> >> >
> >> >Sorry... correction: latest review of Notepad (1999-08-15) says:
> >> >
> >> >http://www.winehq.com/Apps/details.cgi?id=1803
> >> >
> >> >"Works except find/find next."
> >> >
> >> >THe problem being that people submit sporadic reports like these and don't
> >> >test the app in question thoroughly.
> >> >
> >> >Anyway... come on... Notepad is about the simplest application short of
> >> >Hello World that you can write. If this isn't working fine, there's no hope.
> >>
> >> Pretty pathetic, isn't it. WINE can't even get a fucking NOTEPAD to
> >> work correctly. Sounds to me like Win32 is a complete piece of shit,
> >> and MS ought to be taken out and shot just for pretending its a useable
> >> API.
> >
> >Oh, Max. You say that "WINE can't even get ... NOTEPAD to work correctly" and
> >then turn around and say "Win32 is a complete piece of shit, and MS ought to be
> >taken out and shot just for pretending its a useable API"? And you claim that
> >you present logical arguments? WINE emmulates Win32. Windows runs Notepad
> >fine. WINE does not. It would appear that the problem exists in WINE, not with
> >Windows or the Win32 API. Application programmers have proven that Win32 is a
> >very usable API by writing more programs for it than any other OS API while there
> >are virtually no programs that run correctly on WINE, by their own admission.
> >WINE like Linux has a very long way to go on to be any kind of challenge to
> >Windows on the desktop.
>
> <Grin>
>
> You missed the argument completely, Mike. Yes, I said that Win32 is a
> piece of crap, because WINE emulates Win32, and the WINE programmers
> can't support Notepad, a positively trivial Windows program.
I'd have to conclude that it's the WINE programmer's fault in not understanding the
CreateWindow() interface and how to properly create a default window class of "EDIT".
They if they are following the structure of the Win32 API they need to create a
default window procedure for that class (kinda tricky) and make it so it handles all
permutations and combinations of basic and advanced Window styles. I'd have thought
that to be at all successful creating a porting layer link WINE the built in window
control class emulation would have been one of the first targets. Maybe not
understanding that is the core problem.
>There was
>nothing illogical about it. You may have so studiously avoided the
> inference that you simply missed it.
Notepad calls the system DLLs to do it's work. They wrote the faux system DLLs wrong
even when every single function in the Notepad source (yes it is provided) is so stone
cold stock published Win32 API as to be practically archaic when compared to your
average Windows project. WINE is a HUGE project and it's only been going on a few
years -- I don't expect a band of rag-tag open-sourcers to be able to reinvent Windows
in that time. Perhaps it was their fault in underestimating the power of Win32
thinking they could cut corners.
> With all the depth of your
> knowledge of software, you're telling me you don't think that this
> illustrates that Microsoft software is crap, and the Win32 API is crap,
> that it can't be supported by rational programmers trying to support
> that API, and finding themselves unable to get anything to work better
> than Microsoft?
You should have anticipated my response to this before you wrote it Max. I think that
the Win32 API is a many splendored thing with optimizations and nuances under the hood
that could not have been duplicated by the WINE part-timers in the few years they've
been working on it. Had they coded the support for the system DLLs correctly by
testing and documenting their behaviors and the emulating them through thousands of
test cases they might have had a chance but they seem to have the same problem as you
and the rest of the Linux and Mac faithful have -- they underestimate Windows and
think that they can do better without ever taking the time to fully understand it.
That's just foolish.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:00:10 -0400
From: joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
JS/PL wrote:
> "joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > Watch for IIs to make gains. Oh- and MS is now offering free 180 day
> > > evaluations of Advanced Server. I look for that to help out the numbers.
> >
> > What happens on day 181?
>
> You install the full version :-)
And pay the very large bill :-(
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 02:21:19 GMT
On 10/08/2000 at 12:51 PM,
"JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I agree.
> Apple makes an excellent computer "prop". Like those cardboard TV's down
> at the furniture store.
> On another front, since hardly anyone uses them, it's much easier to
> pass off a bogus GUI for the movie viewer to follow. Some of them are
> quite ridiculous. Like the one where the "runner" logs onto the internet
> and the "chaser" sitting at his own computer suddenly knows the location
> of the runner, complete with a real-time satellite video feed of said
> runner (1500 miles away). Then just by coincidence there's 40 secret
> troops in complete uniform and weaponry ready to chase the runner who's
> (by some incredible stroke of luck) located just a block away from them.
There is an article in the current "Reader's Digest" in which a mother
describes her dislexic son as a "Mac in a PC world". What an apt
description of Mac users, dislexic PC users. <G>
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
Tiny Timmie the Liar Martin of Warped City claims eCOMStation is MS
software!
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hotmail been down most of the day
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 22:56:38 -0500
JoeX1029 wrote:
> O come now, dont be too suprised. After all, it DOES run Win2K.
Fairness in reporting:
Contrary to rumor and lamer news stories, only *part* of it runs W2K.
Maybe some W2K is down. Maybe some BSD is down. Maybe it's a power
outage.
I would say "let's wait until we know more", but of course we generally
never get a good scoop on what causes Hotmail problems.
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hotmail been down most of the day
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 22:50:04 -0500
JoeX1029 wrote:
> O come now, dont be too suprised. After all, it DOES run Win2K.
Fairness in reporting:
Contrary to rumor and lamer news stories, only *part* of it runs W2K.
Maybe some W2K is down. Maybe some BSD is down. Maybe it's a power
outage.
I would say "let's wait until we know more", but of course we generally
never get a good scoop on what causes Hotmail problems.
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 05:04:05 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Loren Petrich wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Wrong. Millions of people go to college while earning
> > > what is considered to be "poverty level" incomes.
> >
> > ROTFL. Their tuition is always subsidized, however, whether by their
> Mine wasn't.
Look at the track record.
> Purdue out-of-state tuition is NOT subsidized, and I wasn't
> getting anything from my parents, either.
Cry me a river. I presume that you reimbursed the government for the
cost of military training also.
> > parents or by government-backed loan guarantees. Furthermore, most
> > college students come from middle-class or upper-class homes, meaning
> > that they got much more in handouts from their parents than most poor
> > kids do.
> Thase parents who fail to properly provide for their kids have
> only themselves to blame.
In other words, kids deserve handouts from their parents.
It must be said that the proper no-handout child raising would be to
dump one's kids in the woods when they are born, so they will have to
be as self-reliant as members of most other species have to be.
--
Loren Petrich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train
------------------------------
From: Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 05:07:29 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, STATIC66
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:34:41 GMT, Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > ROTFL. Their tuition is always subsidized, however, whether by their
> >parents or by government-backed loan guarantees. Furthermore, most
> >college students come from middle-class or upper-class homes, meaning
> >that they got much more in handouts from their parents than most poor
> >kids do.
> So a parent being responsible and planning for the future of their
> offspring rather than turning to the government with an outstretched
> hand is somehow bad. That is not a handout its called responsibility.
Responsibility can mean giving others handouts, it would seem.
> > Also, dealing in illegal drugs is not living off of handouts.
> NO it is criminal and illegal and if it wasn't for you bleeding heart
> liberal types, it could be met with SWIFT PUNISHMENT..
What a lover of government STATIC66 is! If it wasn't for those he
sneers at as "liberals", he'd be slaving away in an Alaskan prison camp
for making disrespectful remarks about our President.
> > Even theft is not living off of handouts; victims of theft ought to
> >be glad that thieves are trying to provide for themselves.
> No they should arm themselves..
And possibly giving thieves some extra loot :-)
> Advocating theft as an alternative to welfare is hardly a responsible
> arguement. But nothing much about liberalism is responsible..
C'mon, wouldn't *you* steal if you had no other source of income? It
beats starving, doesn't it?
--
Loren Petrich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train
------------------------------
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