Linux-Advocacy Digest #552, Volume #29 Mon, 9 Oct 00 19:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Newbie: How do you setup 2 PC's using Rhat Linux 6.2?
Re: You Linux folks Just Don't Get It.... (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Peter da Silva)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Peter da Silva)
Re: Winvocates and Linvocates: What do you use your desktop OS for?
Re: What're Linus's computer/laptop specs? (Steve Mading)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) (Marty)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) (Marty)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Steve Mading)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: Newbie: How do you setup 2 PC's using Rhat Linux 6.2?
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:16:53 -0000
On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:49:00 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
>on Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:56:11 GMT
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>RTFunnyM or the How-To's.
>>
>>There are thousands of them so you should be busy for a while.
>
>I would have expected something from you more along the lines of:
>
>[1] Buy two copies of Win2k.
>[2] Use the RH6.2 as a coaster for a coffee mug, as you wait
> for the install, which should take 5 minutes at most anyway.
>[3] Install the two copies of Win2k.
>[4] Reboot.
>
>:-)
>
>(Disclaimer: I happen to like RH 6.0 and 6.2, so don't take
>this too seriously. But I'm surprised you didn't take this
>opportunity to push what you obviously think is a
>far better operating system. [*] :-) )
>
>(Disclaimer #2: There are a number of HOWTOs, but he'd not have
>to read all of them; the ones that appear relevant are the
>Networking howto, the DNS howto, the Printing howto,
>the Apache installation instructions, and possibly the howto
>on how to rebuild the kernel whose name I forget offhand, since
>he's going to have to add the 'ne.o' module for the NIC; he
>won't get far otherwise. :-) )
He's certainly better of recompiling in this instance.
The ne2000 module is one of those odd ones that only
does autodetection when it's not a module.
Although, you really don't need a howto for the kernel.
Just read the README carefully. Infact, if he installs
everything in Redhat, he should just be able to use the
gui configurator (cd /usr/linux/src;make xconfig), set
the ne2000 checkbox to Y/es (rather than M/odule) and
rcompile.
[deletia]
Except for the problem of skanky network hardware, the rest
should actually be relatively simple. There are shiny happy
gui tools for every bit except dealing with the NE2000's.
The tricky bit for him will be getting up to speed on IP
networking concepts (the ethernet howto is good for this).
--
Big M, Little M, many mumbling mice
Are making midnight music in the moonlight,
Mighty nice!
Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall.
-- Sir Walter Raleigh
FORTUNE PROVIDES QUESTIONS FOR THE GREAT ANSWERS: #4
A: Go west, young man, go west!
Q: What do wabbits do when they get tiwed of wunning awound?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: You Linux folks Just Don't Get It....
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:18:06 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:41:15 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>I agree, but it will be a long and slow evolution and MS isn't sitting
>still either.
Correct, IMO.
While I do like Linux, I believe that Microsoft's DNA and .NET strategies
will in fact overwhelm the marketplace. Microsoft is uniquely positioned,
as a monopoly, to leverage its dominance, and it knows how to do it well.
One hopes it does so legally, but it is far from clear that other
vendors (Sun? IBM? Compaq? GNU?) will be able to develop software
for the .NET platform in as timely a manner. (To be fair, it's also
far from clear that they can't, once the specifications are in
fact nailed down. Of course, who controls the specs?)
However, there's also a backlash (backslash? :-) ) against Microsoft.
I don't see newsgroups such as alt.destroy.linux, for example --
although someone might create it just to spite me :-) -- and
it's clear that Microsoft might fall under their own weight if
they're not careful, since their software is so complex; part
of that complexity is also unnecessary, and part of it is because of
binary-enforced backward compatibility. Linux, for all of its faults,
at least tries to keep the kernel, GUI, and applications separable,
which in theory makes a system a little easier to debug. Also,
source code is a little easier to change, for those with the
technical know-how -- although it would be tedious to locate
every occurrence of lseek() and change it to llseek(), for example,
to retrofit a program for 64-bit compatibility. (Fortunately, most
programs encapsulate low-level stuff.)
In practice, however, it may make little difference; most apps will
be (re-)written in either Java (which carries its own GUI), or C# (which
will probably carry its own GUI on non-Microsoft platforms). Webapps
will also come to the fore; the GUI of a Webapp is a browser, which
is basically an interpreter for HTML attached to a socket connector
(port 80 or 443, depending); even the web server connects to other
servers -- actually, Tomcat servlets (http://jakarta.apache.com
for this interesting concept!) -- in order to get the work done.
The application/system therefore can get distributed over a very wide area,
especially with secure communications (JCSE, JSSE, and others).
The browser is also extensible, as well -- Flash or Shockwave,
Java (for applets), various ActiveX components, and Netscape
plugins. This may yield additional port connections.
This is going to be a long and messy war.
>
>claire
>
>
>On Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:16:29 -0400, BcB BcB <youdon'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I am a programmer. Love the stuff. But my girlfriend is just an average
>>user. Checks her email, types some documents a little accounting, etc.
>>Nothing heavy. She uses linux quite happily and actually perfers it to
>>windows. I'll have to agree that linux is a programmers paradise -hell it
>>gives you the source code! As linux improves in a couple of ways my bets
>>are that more users will be like this. Let the revolution continue.
>>
>>BcB
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:07:35 +1000, Chris Sherlock
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >Really? Then what do you call Visual C++, Borland C++, Turbo Pascal, or
>>> >Delphi?
>>>
>>> And how much shelf space do they take up at CompUsa or Microcenter?
>>>
>>> Compared to rest of the applications for Windows?
>>>
>>>
>>> >> >We don't need 200 different text editors.
>>> >
>>> >Hmmm. What about the port of vi for DOS. What about Notepad, Wordpad,
>>> >Write, NoteTab (http://www.notetab.com) or Free Notepad
>>> >(http://www.yellowforest.com/freefilesexplorer/index.htm)? Obviously,
>>> >someone felt that Windows needed another text editor!
>>>
>>>
>>> Walk up to 1000 Windows users at random on Main St. USA and ask them
>>> if they use vi? Or Emacs or Brief (they still make that one?)
>>>
>>> Another programmer :)
>>>
>>> >> >We don't need all kinds of freeware libraries and fragmented programs
>>> >> >that do specific functions, most of which are useless to all but other
>>> >> >programmers..
>>> >
>>> >That's right. Libraries are only used by programmers for their programs.
>>> >In a way you are right - libraries *are* very useful for coders. They
>>> >allow each other to reuse each other's code without having to recompile
>>> >everything all the time and causing great big fat bloated apps.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about average folks. Programmers are a minuscule part of
>>> the population.
>>>
>>> >Interestingly, you have *no* idea what libraries are used for. Windows
>>> >uses a TON of libraries (two of which are kernel32.dll and GDI32.dll -
>>> >funny that, isn't it?)
>>>
>>> Actually I do, having gone through Win3.1, 95 and every other version.
>>> dll's are well known to me :)
>>>
>>> >Libraries are very good things - reusable code is a very good thing.
>>> >Perhaps you don't really know what you are talking about here? Besides,
>>> >I have to ask you what libraries you find are so "useless".
>>>
>>> Never said that. I said average Joe could care less.
>>>
>>> >> >We don't need 90 percent of the software on Freshmeat.
>>> >
>>> >*You* may not need 90 percent of the software on Freshmeat, but then
>>> >again *you* don't need 90% of the programs on Winfiles! What is your
>>> >point?
>>>
>>> The programs I see on Winfiles are useful to the average secretary or
>>> a kid looking for some game or address book or something. While
>>> Freshmeat does have some of that kind of stuff, you have to wade
>>> through page after page of fragmented technical stuff. Ie:programmer
>>> tools for GTK QT etc.
>>>
>>> >Freshmeat catalogues all sorts of open-source software. Some of it is
>>> >obscure, a lot of it is very usefull!
>>>
>>> To programmers mostly. Like Linux in general.
>>>
>>> >> >We don't want to return to the 1980's playing with config files.
>>> >
>>> >Unfortuneately, most higher level technicians are still playing around
>>> >with the registry, and some still even play around with config files.
>>>
>>> Programmers again.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >We have gone through Config.sys and Autoexec.bat files ad nauseam with
>>> >> >Qemm and Qualatis, playing with Himem.sys to gain that extra 5k of
>>> >> >free memory.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >This is 1980's stuff and it is gone, goodbye. We don't want to
>>> >> >resurrect playing around with text files.
>>> >
>>> >So why is knowledge of these things still a requirement of the A+
>>> >certification?
>>>
>>> Because programmers net techs, sysadmins need this stuff. Useful to
>>> them, useless to average Joe and Jane.
>>>
>>> >> >We don't want half assed implementations of Windows software either.
>>> >> >If you choose to clone it but can't clone it completely, including all
>>> >> >ease of use features, don't bother at all. it will only make you look
>>> >> >silly. The current crop of mp3 players are a good example. Damm things
>>> >> >can't even remember the song directory.
>>> >
>>> >OK, can't comment too much on your mp3 player. Then again, you didn't
>>> >tell me which one you use!
>>>
>>> MusicMatch JukeBox. Or Pyro by Cakewalk.
>>>
>>> >Of course, you didn't mention what are "half assed implementations of
>>> >Windows software". Would you care to give some examples?
>>>
>>> Pick one.
>>>
>>> Pick any one of the current Winamp, ACDEESE,Agent clones.
>>>
>>> >> >We are willing to pay for quality software that works out of the box.
>>> >> >And Windows has plenty of it.
>>> >
>>> >Caldera, Mandrake and RedHat all have software that works "out of the
>>> >box".
>>>
>>> A ton of programmer stuff again...
>>>
>>> >> >Example: Norton Internet Firewall, BlackIce, Zonealarm (free BTW).
>>> >> >Compare this to trying to set up a firewall under Linux using
>>> >> >IpChains, ipforwarding and such....What a waste of time, as well as a
>>> >> >potential security risk for those setting it up that don't know what
>>> >> >they are doing.
>>> >
>>> >Ah, yeah. Right. Have you ever tried gfcc? This is a *very* nice
>>> >graphical firewall. See http://icarus.autostock.co.kr/ Even nicer is
>>> >Lokkit - See http://www.linux.org.uk/apps/lokkit.shtml
>>> >
>>> >Then there is Nessus: http://www.nessus.org and Firestarter
>>> >http://firestarter.sourceforge.net/
>>> >
>>> >Like KDE? Try GuardDog at http://www.simonzone.com/software/guarddog/
>>> >
>>> >Want more? Have a look at the following page:
>>> >http://www.linuxberg.com/x11html/adm_firewall.html
>>>
>>>
>>> And how much of my lifetime do I have to devote to setting these up?
>>>
>>> >> >Sorry but my data is worth $30.00 or so, to have a professionally
>>> >> >designed program that works out of the box and is easily customized.
>>> >> >Also I don't have to scour the net for config scripts that may
>>> >> >actually compromise security. The products I use, and pay for, are
>>> >> >used by corporations everywhere, and if a flaw should arise, and they
>>> >> >do, a fix is released....
>>> >
>>> >Funnily enough, this happens *frequently* in Linux also.
>>>
>>> Agreed..
>>>
>>> >> >Browsers?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Netscape, says it all. Even Windows users think Netscape sucks.
>>> >
>>> >OK, let's see. We have Opera for Linux (http://www.opera.com/linux/),
>>> >Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org), Skipstone
>>> >(http://www.muhri.net/skipstone/), Galeon
>>> >(http://galeon.sourceforge.net/), Express (a very new one, see
>>> >http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/express/) and Encompass
>>> >(http://www.geocities.com/lordzephyroth/encompass.html) just to name a
>>> >few.
>>>
>>>
>>> Opera 4.02 stinks under Windows. It has been in eternal beta for
>>> Linux.
>>> IE 5 is the standard and nobody has surpassed it yet, least of all
>>> Netscrape.
>>>
>>> >Actually I don't mind Netscape too much when I use it on Windows. It
>>> >does the job, and at least when I hit the <esc> button it actually
>>> >*stops* loading pages, unlike it's famous competitor.
>>>
>>> You are settling for a second rate product.
>>>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Email?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Anything like Eudora yet?
>>> >> >Sorry but I don't feel like configuring sendmail today, or any day for
>>> >> >that matter.
>>> >
>>> >Ah, yeah. Shows how much *you* know about email doesn't it? Who uses
>>> >sendmail for desktop systems??!!!???
>>> >
>>> >Try Eucalyptus (MIME aware, and can be found at
>>> >http://eucalyptus.sourceforge.net/) or Mahogany
>>> >(http://www.wxwindows.org/Mahogany/). Again, KDE has a great email
>>> >program called KMail (see http://devel-home.kde.org/~kmail/)
>>>
>>> Kmail isn't bad.
>>>
>>> >> >Linux still lags far, far, far, far, behind Windows and this is
>>> >> >evident by the number of sales of Windows ME.... Why would people pay
>>> >> >for what really amounts to a minimal upgrade instead of getting Linux
>>> >> >for free?
>>> >> >They are not interested in Linux, that is why.
>>> >
>>> >Uh, yeah. Great syllogism - everybody is not interested in Linux because
>>> >they are buying Windows ME. Ever heard of the dual-booting? I believe
>>> >that all those Linux distrubutions out there would be very interested
>>> >that noone is interested in Linux!
>>>
>>> They are dual booting for a short while to try Linux. When they run
>>> out of space loading mp3's, Linux partition goes down the drain.
>>>
>>> >> >Linux has had it's day in the press, let's do every desktop user a
>>> >> >favor and put it out of it's misery once and for all :)
>>> >
>>> >I'm sure all those KDE and GNOME users out there would have something to
>>> >say about that!
>>>
>>> I actually like kde and Gnome and feel they are doing a fine job. I
>>> just loaded kde 2.0 and a lot has changed from 1.x.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >> >I along with everybody else in the world would LOVE free applicaitons,
>>> >> >but not at the price that running Linux involves.
>>> >
>>> >You may want to have a look at Helix Code or Mandrake. I think that
>>> >these would suit you down to the ground.
>>>
>>> I run Mandrake 7.1 and yes, I do think it is one of, if not, the best
>>> distro.
>>>
>>> >Chris
>>>
>>> In a nutshell, I AGREE with most of what you are saying Chris, but I
>>> am looking at Linux from a typical users point of view. Not as an os
>>> for a programmer, but an OS alternative for someone using Windows or
>>> Mac.
>>> Linux has to do more to focus on that kind of user or it will never be
>>> able to erode the already installed Windows base.
>>>
>>> Make no mistake about it, people could care less about the DOJ and
>>> Microsoft, BUT from what I hear people are getting tired of being
>>> nickel and dimes for upgrades to Windows. They are also getting tired
>>> of the required upgrades of their applications to run properly. The
>>> version of the month club is starting to annoy people.
>>>
>>> Golden opportunity for Linux IMHO..
>>>
>>> It's been nice talking with you...
>>>
>>> Claire
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >> >claire
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>>
>
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter da Silva)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: 9 Oct 2000 21:51:07 GMT
In article <nk%D5.27549$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <SNIP: diatribe about how poorly implemented VT100 is/was>
You fail to understand, grasshopper. My message was about how, even with an
incredibly simple application interface that quickly became the standard
even for DEC's competitors, programmers will write programs that depend on
undocumented behaviour.
You don't even need secret communication channels for that to happen. All
it takes is programmers in a hurry trying things out and having them work.
They probably don't even realise they're depending on undefined behaviour.
So, the point is that even with a system as simple as a video terminal
it's not easy to do a complete emulation.
I won't go into the issue of what is a "well architected" system and what
isn't, it's irrelevant, the complexity of the Win32 API is obvious. It's
far far more complex than the vt100 with decimal orders of magnitude more
opportunity for weird undefined behaviour that has to be emulated, no matter
how good Microsoft might be at avoiding it.
To me, it's amazing that Wine manages to run ANY significant Windows program
at all.
--
`-_-' In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.
'U` "Milloin halasit viimeksi suttasi?"
Disclaimer: WWFD?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter da Silva)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: 9 Oct 2000 21:59:26 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
John Lockwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 3) Notepad is a trivial windows application. (Defined as an
> application a good Windows programmer could complete in a week or
> two).
Are you saying that you would expect a good Windows programmer to take a
week or two to implement Notepad? Is that a reasonable estimate of the
time it would take for a program like that?
--
`-_-' In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.
'U` "Milloin halasit viimeksi suttasi?"
Disclaimer: WWFD?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winvocates and Linvocates: What do you use your desktop OS for?
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:47:32 +1000
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Drestin Black wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron Ginn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > Now it's your turn. What do you use your desktop for, and why does
> > > you OS do the job better than the alternatives?
> > >
> >
> > Actually, I use my Windows 2000 desktop for... everything. unlike other
> > OSes, there has never EVER been not even one single time that I've ever
> > thought: "Gee, I wish I had an app like 'xyz' on 'os uvw'".
>
> That's because you never get involved with high-end computing.
>
> When companies start putting 200Gig databases on Lose2k, you get back to
us.
>
> Until then, stop pretending that M$ has even bothered to develop a real
OS.
>
>
<snip>
Hmmm. I must be imagining the 800K user (active users) mailsystem with >1TB
of mailstores running on NT 4.0 just around the corner.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What're Linus's computer/laptop specs?
Date: 9 Oct 2000 22:43:49 GMT
Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: apparently (from the compaq digital site) he has been given an Alpha
: Workstation by compaq, along with many other prominant linux developers.
Linus has been given many other prominent linux developers? Where
does he keep them? Stacked up in the closet?
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:49:05 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Marty writes:
>
> >>> David T. Johnson wrote:
>
> >>>> Marty wrote:
>
> >>>> [repetitive comments snipped]
>
> >>> Sorry David, you lose.
> >>>
> >>> Stop being a hypocrite and grow up.
>
> >> Practice what you preach, Marty.
>
> > I wasn't the one preaching about off-topic posting while writing such
> > postings.
>
> You were the one preaching about "stop being a hypocrite and grow up",
> Marty.
Very good, Dave.
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:51:03 GMT
"David T. Johnson" wrote:
>
> Marty wrote:
> >
> > "David T. Johnson" wrote:
> > >
> > > Marty wrote:
> > > >
> > > [repetitive comments snipped]
> >
> > Sorry David, you lose.
>
> Well, I have certainly lost in the name-calling category.
Not even close. I lost too many points in that category for supporting my
claims with examples and facts.
> Congratulations.
To you.
> > Stop being a hypocrite and grow up.
> >
> > "[repetitive comments snipped]"
Note: no response, and the hypocrisy continues.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 9 Oct 2000 22:53:42 GMT
Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Steve Mading wrote:
:> Also, there's the problem of precedence. To make
:> homemade operators work, there would either have to
:> be a way to let the programmer define the operator's
:> precedence, or the language would have to ignore all
:> precedence and do everything left-to-right. The second
:> solution (which is what I gather Smalltalk does from
:> what Richard said) is distasteful to me because it
:> diverges from the way we've been educated to view math
:> expressions (It seems "icky" to have a language that
:> does 2+3*x in the wrong algebraic order.
: As you said, this is only because that's the way you've been
: educated. And trust me, it takes very little time to get used
: to it.
:> It means I'm
:> going to have to insert a heck of a lot of parentheses
:> in any nontrivial expression.)
: In practice, you don't do that. Rather, you reorder
: your expressions so that the left to right and canonical
: evaluation orders coincide.
That's often impossible. Consider, for example, several
terms added together, as in a polynomial: 4x^2 - 2x + 1
There's no way to write that in one expression without
some sort of precedence that isn't left-to-right. There's
a reason mathematics uses order of operations - any
alternative would be painfully verbose for nontrivial
expressions.
: And Smalltalk has id1 id2 id3 as valid expressions
: (so long as id2 ends with a colon). So
: 'aParser parse: aString' is valid Smalltalk. In fact,
: all methods in Smalltalk are infix so even though
: #inject:with: is a single method, you write it
: aCollection inject: aBlockOCode with: anInteger
: Smalltalk isn't completely left to right; it has three
: precedence levels (unary, binary, keyword) so that
: you don't have to put brackets around arguments to
: methods.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:08:19 GMT
Marty writes:
>>>>> David T. Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> Marty wrote:
>>>>>> [repetitive comments snipped]
>>>>> Sorry David, you lose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop being a hypocrite and grow up.
>>>> Practice what you preach, Marty.
>>> I wasn't the one preaching about off-topic posting while writing such
>>> postings.
>> You were the one preaching about "stop being a hypocrite and grow up",
>> Marty.
> Very good, Dave.
So why did you bring up "off-topic posting", Marty?
------------------------------
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