Linux-Advocacy Digest #686, Volume #29 Mon, 16 Oct 00 08:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (=?Windows-1252?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?=)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Jesper Krogh)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Astroturfing (Ian Davey)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? ("Todd")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donal K.
Fellows)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donal K.
Fellows)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (2:1)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Carl Fink)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (Chris Sherlock)
Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web! ("Otto")
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Chris Sherlock)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Chris Sherlock)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Chris Sherlock)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 06:12:05 -0300
El sáb, 14 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> El vie, 13 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>> >"Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
>> >> In Java primitive types are objects, but instances of those types are
>> >> not objects. Lose one point for lack of reading comprehension.
>> >
>> >This, of course, is total bullshit.
>> >
>> >1) primitive types are not objects. What the class are they
>> > supposed to be of anyways?
>>
>> Erm....
>>
>> "I don't believe classes should exist in the system at all. New objects should
>> be created by copying prototypes." Richard.
>>
>> Consider classes to be objects that don't belong to a class.
>
>You don't know what the hell you're talking about Roberto. For one thing,
>you betray an astonishing ignorance of what "object" means.
I calim no expertise, however, I just pointed out that it seemed peculiar to
advocate a classless object oriented language and at the same time using "what
class are they supposed to be?" as an argument against something being an
object.
Now, feel free to bicker with Donal and FM about it.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:11:59 +0200
"D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
tYNF5.1843$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Paul 'Z' Ewande©" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8s6j6l$q5k$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "D'Arcy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
> > CgjF5.119$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > Let me get that straight to see if I understood you correctly.
>
> > > I have absolutly no idea if MS did any of that or not... but your
logic
> > > is faulty:
>
> > Hey, it's not my logic, it's Weevil's. I just tried to clarify what he
> said,
> > and it amounts to that, IMO.
>
> You clarrified it incorrectly though. You missed a step.
Sure. But will you be nice enough to point out which one ?
Let's recap:
Weevil: "As it also turns out, there are many, many undocumented functions
in almost
all of their APIs. Do their products use these undocumented functions?
Yes, they do. "
I: "- MS uses undocumented functions to trump competitors."
Weevil: "You can bet your ass that their competitors don't, though."
I: "- Smart competitors don't use those undocumented functions."
Weevil: "Not the smart ones, anyway. "
I: "- Not So Smart ones do."
Weevil: "Microsoft simply gets rid of that ol' "undocumented function" in
the next release..."
I: "- MS gets rid of said undocumented functions."
Weevil: "...and thereby breaks their competitors product."
I: "- Not So Smart developers apps break."
And I add : "- MS apps magically _still_ work."
Where did I miss a step ?
> > > No... MS apps still work because they knew in advance to stop using
the
> > > function, or that the behaviour had changed, or whatever.
>
> > Do you *really* believe that ?
>
> Do I beleive that an MS app may have used an undocumented
> API call at one point and then removed that call later? Yes.
By definition, if it's undocumented, it's not an API call, sinced the API is
the visible interface to the OS. :)
> Do I beleive that such an API has been removed from Windows?
> Probably it has.
That's why it's undocumented: it shouldn't be used. If you rely on it and
it's removed, and your app breaks, it's your fault.
> > What if simply they didn't use undocumented API functions, would be
> simpler
> > than the superior and prescient coding skill people would like to
> attribute
> > MS.
>
> Uhhh... faulty logic. What would the reason of having
> an undocumented API be if nothing called it?
Maybe it's there for testing purposes until the OS vendor decides to keep or
remove it. Or for compatibility purposes ?
> It has been shown in the past that there are undocumetned APIs
> and that MS apps have used such APIs. The issue has always
Lets' say functions, the API is fully visible. The undocumented functions
shouldn't be used.
> been wether or not those APIs gave MS a cler advantage over
> competitors... of that I don't know.
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
Me neither.
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jesper Krogh)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:07:40 +0200
> > What is available for Linux? How about for Powerpoint and Excel?
>
> Staroffice.
> www.sun.com
Guess, the right url must be:
http://www.openoffice.org
--
./Jesper Krogh.
The Goal is world domination, no more, no less.
This means that your PC should run linux too.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 06:40:40 -0300
El dom, 15 oct 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
>Why do my posts generate so much hate and semi-intelligent insults
>from the Linux world?
>
>Because you fear me that's why.
>
>Unlike the typical WinTroll, I actually use current versions of the
>software I am exposing. I have used every single distribution up to
>and including Mandrake 7.1 and with the exception of Slackware they
>all suck in one way or another.
>Sorry but it is true.
Allow me to doubt it. I personally have a list of over 90 distributions. Most
of them have had over 3 versions. You claim to have used over 200 different
version/distro combinations? ;-)
On the other hand, I doubt you have even used the 10 most popular ones.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Davey)
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:42:20 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> When I said use your brain, I meant use it, not repeat the same stuff in
>> detail. There is probably something very badly wrong with your
>> installation. C corrupted filesystem or a bad harddisk or something.
>> There are kernel options to allow Linux to see more memory.
>> Try mem=256M or something like it.
>
>That's the point, my objective isn't to hack the kernel, it is to insert a
>disk, hover over the return key for a few minutes and have the thing work in
You don't need to hack the kernel, there's a point in the Mandrake 7.1 install
where you get to enter how much memory you have. All you do is amend the
64MB value in the text box and change it to 256MB. Not rocket science.
ian.
\ /
(@_@) http://www.eclipse.co.uk/sweetdespise/ (dark literature)
/(&)\ http://www.eclipse.co.uk/sweetdespise/libertycaptions/ (art)
| |
------------------------------
From: "Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:18:14 +0800
"Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8sdiin$o7m$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> : Tell that to your boss when you hand in your report and it looks like
> : crap, all because you used Linux and he, along with the rest of the
> : world, is using Word.
>
>
> Professional publishers have been using Unix for decades.
Not any more.
Unix is falling by the wayside... I remember once when someone said
"professional CAD/CAM, PCB design software, etc. is a UNIX domain."
Not any more.
NT/2000 have basically taken up that slot.
This is a time that will be long remembered. It has seen the end of UNIX's
hold on design software, it will soon see the end of its hold on publishing
software.
hehe.
-Todd
>
>
> Joe
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 16 Oct 2000 10:49:09 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
>> In Java primitive types are objects, but instances of those types are
>> not objects. Lose one point for lack of reading comprehension.
>
> This, of course, is total bullshit.
No. The fact that you are too cranially challenged to realise it is
*your* problem though, not mine. If you want to charge round USENET
claiming that black is white, you're going to end up looking like a
complete chump in front of *millions* of smart people...
> 1) primitive types are not objects. What the class are they
> supposed to be of anyways?
The primitive types *are* (singleton) instances of java.lang.Class as
are all Java types. Hence, the primitive types are objects since they
satisfy the definition of a class object. You can launch into another
round of quivering denial if you wish, but it won't change the fact
that you are just wrong in this instance.
> 2) instances of those types are not objects either.
I didn't say they were. You seem fundamentally determined to view
everyone else on comp.os.linux.advocacy as your intellectual inferior
in the face of evidence that you're way out of your depth. Think you,
in the bowels of Christ, that you might be doing something stupid?
(Which is a wonderful misquote; 1 point for the attributed original!)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Anyone using MFC desperatly needs a nasal enigma.
-- David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 16 Oct 2000 10:53:53 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
The Ghost In The Machine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I guess that answers my implied question. :-) Of course, I do
> wonder why this is stuck on Sun's website, when Sun is pushing Java....
> why aren't they pushing Self??
Sun's a big organization, and it is quite possible for the left hand
to have no idea at all what the right hand is doing. Of course, since
Self is just a research project, it is small potatoes anyway.
> Bizarre.
A good description of all large organizations, without exception...
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Anyone using MFC desperatly needs a nasal enigma.
-- David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:10:01 GMT
Roberto Alsina wrote:
> I calim no expertise, however, I just pointed out that it seemed peculiar to
> advocate a classless object oriented language and at the same time using "what
> class are they supposed to be?" as an argument against something being an
> object.
There is no ambiguity: if something exists then it SHOULD be an object.
If classes are to exist (as they do in both Smalltalk and C++) then they
should be objects (as they are only in Smalltalk). But classes should
not exist. (Inheritance should but it should be a first-class property
instead of being relegated to special "class" objects.)
Having objects that are "classes" of other objects is ridiculous. Having
them be magical entities that aren't addressable as objects (yet still
exist somehow someway) is insane.
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:12:14 +0100
Jesper Krogh wrote:
>
> > > What is available for Linux? How about for Powerpoint and Excel?
> >
> > Staroffice.
> > www.sun.com
>
> Guess, the right url must be:
> http://www.openoffice.org
D'OH. it used to be at SUN.
-Ed
>
> --
> ./Jesper Krogh.
> The Goal is world domination, no more, no less.
> This means that your PC should run linux too.
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Carl Fink)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: 16 Oct 2000 11:03:13 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:11:06 -0400 jazz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Erp...I checked it out and am sorry I didn't make clear I'm currently a
>Mac/Unix guy thinking about dumping my Mac for Linux (the Unix is our
>supercomputer, which I am not allowed to take home).
Well, if you run Linux on your Mac, you could use Mac-on-Linux to run
MacOS inside Linux natively, and run any Mac software you need
side-by-side with Linux stuff.
See <http://www.ibrium.se/linux/mac_on_linux.html>.
--
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager, Dueling Modems Computer Forum
<http://dm.net>
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:46:01 -0300
El lun, 16 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> I calim no expertise, however, I just pointed out that it seemed peculiar to
>> advocate a classless object oriented language and at the same time using "what
>> class are they supposed to be?" as an argument against something being an
>> object.
>
>There is no ambiguity: if something exists then it SHOULD be an object.
>If classes are to exist (as they do in both Smalltalk and C++) then they
>should be objects (as they are only in Smalltalk). But classes should
>not exist. (Inheritance should but it should be a first-class property
>instead of being relegated to special "class" objects.)
>
>Having objects that are "classes" of other objects is ridiculous. Having
>them be magical entities that aren't addressable as objects (yet still
>exist somehow someway) is insane.
So, in short: having a class is not a necessary characteristic of an object.
So, not belonging to classes doesn't prove classes are not objects.
So, your previous "what class are they supposed to be?" was logically
ineffectual, since a language could have objects that belong to classes and
objects that don't.
So much for your vaunted logic skills.
And before you say I am stupid: otice how I don't claim that classes are
objects, I just point out the inadequacy of your own attempt at doing that.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:45:31 +1000
From: Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Er, who cares? I didn't really even *know* what a computer is back then
(was I even alive?) :)
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Why not?
>
> I used to hand all of my PL/1 programs on punched cards to a priest
> who fed them into a 3505 IBM card reader.
>
> That's more than most of the yo-yo's in this group can claim.
>
> claire
>
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 00:29:24 GMT, sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:02:18 -0500, "Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >You really are a silly person. I'd wager that 99% of the people
> >reading
> >> >this newsgroup have more experience with Dos/Windows than you. It
> >really
> >> >is kind of dumb for you to blather on about how great "Windows" is to
> >> >them.
> >>
> >> I doubt it. I go back well before DOS was a dollar sign in BG's eyes.
> >
> >Hey, being a card puncher hardly qualifys.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >They have also learned to use Unix/Linux and find that it
> >> >meets their needs better than the afore mentioned operating system.
> >>
> >> If I were running a server I would agree.
> >> >You however, cannot make an intelligent assessment of what the pros
> >and
> >> >cons of each are because you know nothing of Unix/Linux.
> >>
> >> I know plenty about Linux. Having used Corel, Caldera, RedHat,
> >> Mandrake TurboLinux and Slackware, All current versions I feel I am
> >> qualified to comment.
> >>
> >> >I wonder where you got the idea that Linux is for everyone. It isn't.
> >If
> >> >you cannot or will not read, Linux is most definately not for you.
> >>
> >> Where did I get that idea?
> >>
> >> Check the COLA archives for that info. You have some nuts here that
> >> think Linux IS for everyone.
> >>
> >> >If you can read and don't mind doing so, you might find even with its
> >> >shortcomings, Linux is far preferable to Dos/Windows.
> >>
> >> If you look from an applications point of view you will see otherwise.
> >>
> >> >Windows has its place and has enabled the lowest comon denominator in
> >our
> >> >society to run powerful applications run on sophisticated computers.
> >Does
> >> >that mean it is a superior operating system? No.
> >>
> >> The fact that 90 percent or more of the desktop world is running it
> >> says something.
> >> Where is Linux on the desktop?
> >>
> >> >Learn to use Linux and use it exclusively for a year or two.
> >>
> >> I don't like torture.
> >>
> >> I couldn't even if I wanted to. It doesn't have the applications I
> >> need to run my business. No surprise.
> >>
> >> claire
> >> >Then your judgements, opinions, and comparisons between Windows and
> >Linux
> >> >will have more weight.
> >>
> >> I have been dual booting for years and still Linux sucks.
> >> >Until then you go into the killfile with the rest of the kooks.
> >>
> >> Whatever.
> >> claire
> >>
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Otto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web!
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:52:42 GMT
"James E. Freedle II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:eqtG5.1164$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: You know I think that it is kind of funny that Windows NT Administrators
get
: paid more than UNIX Administrators :)
And they should get paid more without a doubt, however funny it might sound.
After all how hard it is to administer a Unix system, which is stable, easy
to modify the kernel, never needs rebooting, highly secure, and just like
the energizer bunny keeps on running and running...? Compare that to NT,
which is not stable, move the mouse and it needs to be rebooted, has no
security, its kernel can not be changed, fixes for the kernel coming out by
the hour, etc... Get my hint :)?
: Also it is completely false that Windows (Any Version) is harder to
: administer that UNIX. Actually it is the other way around. Of course that
: all depends on who you ask. If somebody has been trained in administering
: UNIX, they will resist with tooth and nail to learning to administer
: Windows.
The reverse is true also, NT admins don't want to learn to administer Unix
either. It is just a personal preference, which ever one knows it's easy to
do. Since the learning curve for NT isn't as steep as for Unix, not to
mention the availability of the software and hardware, which in itself makes
the choice easy.
Otto
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:52:23 +1000
From: Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Have you ever used it?
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> You have to be kidding?
>
> Latex?
>
> barrrrrrrrrrrrrrffffffffffffffffffffffffffff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
> claire
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:10:05 +0400, "Jan Schaumann"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> I really need a powerful word processor with templates, styles, etc.
> >>
> >
> >Learn LaTeX (or LyX) - you'll be much more efficient in no time.
> >
> >> What is available for Linux? How about for Powerpoint and Excel?
> >
> >I use gnumeric for spreadsheets.
> >If you need something like powerpoint... *shrug*.
> >But with LaTeX you canproduce some nice slides...
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Jan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:54:58 +1000
From: Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
So you admit you are a troll? Gee...
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> You must be a moron.
>
> Usually only takes one post..
>
> Cheers!
>
> claire
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:53:24 +0400, "Jan Schaumann"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm, took me three posts to realize you're a troll, I'm getting old.
> >
> >*plonk*
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Jan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:56:34 +1000
From: Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
What about saving your document in rtf format? Surely this way all
(good) WPs will render it properly.
Chris
Dustin Puryear wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:44:43 -0400, jazz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >All I ask for is the ability to import Star Office files into Word. Possible?
>
> Yes, it is possible. However, be aware that there are a few conversion issues.
> In general, documents will be imported/exported properly, but I've found that
> sometimes tables and other odds-and-ends don't come out 100% correct.
>
> You should run StarOffice and create a few test documents that use the features
> you will be using. Swap between SO and Word and see what happens. Make sure
> that you create the original test documents in both SO and Word and do two
> separate test.
>
> Another possibility is to use HTML for true portability, but most publishing
> houses will not support that.
>
> --
> Dustin Puryear <$email = "dpuryear"."@usa.net";>
> Integrate Linux Solutions into Your Windows Network
> - http://www.prima-tech.com/integrate-linux
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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