Linux-Advocacy Digest #747, Volume #29 Thu, 19 Oct 00 17:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (Haoyu Meng)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Re: Ms employees begging for food
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Grega Bremec)
Re: Distro 8.0 wish list... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Brian Langenberger)
Re: The Linux Experience ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE (Tim Kelley)
Re: Linus position in "Power List" (Tim Kelley)
Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE ("James")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Darin Johnson)
Re: Why Linux is great. ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Astroturfing ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Astroturfing ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: who's WHINING dipshit! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Has anyone had much success with plex86? ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: sysadmin == secondary role (Was: Astroturfing ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Haoyu Meng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:06:42 GMT
I think Linux is better than Win95/98 because it is stable. Stability is
crucial for a production environment. Win95/98 crashes so much
spontaneously, that I turned away in disgust and switched to Linux
desktop. But I always very sober to the fact that in terms of core
functionality and scope of software support, the Linux desktop is by far
the primitive and immature. Its only and decisive strength is *IT NEVER
CRASH*! Win95/98 are very useful, but too flakey.
But then came Win2000. All the good things of win95/98, and yet rock solid
as Linux. So for the first time in more than 3 years, Microsoft is taking
over my desktop exclusively again.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Why do my posts generate so much hate and semi-intelligent insults
> from the Linux world?
>
> Because you fear me that's why.
>
> Unlike the typical WinTroll, I actually use current versions of the
> software I am exposing. I have used every single distribution up to
> and including Mandrake 7.1 and with the exception of Slackware they
> all suck in one way or another.
> Sorry but it is true.
>
> Why doesn't Slackware suck? Because it is not trying to be a half
> assed clone of Windows that's why. It is Linux, does not try to claim
> otherwise and stands on it's own for better or worse.
> I respect that. Slackware is Linux at it's best, like it or not, it is
> an honest attempt at the Linux philosophy and I like that.
>
> You yo-yo's are so caught up in your own pile of bullshit that you
> have not a clue as to what the rest of the world wants, needs or is
> asking for.
>
> You think desktop users want Linux?
>
> Think again. You can't even give it away.
>
> You think we want (taking Terry Porters list) Compilers, editors,
> schematic diagram thingies, flowchart programs? Think again.
>
> Again you are a collective bunch of idiots with blinders on.
>
> Linux is free. Yet you can't even give it away.
> Linux has had a LOT of positive press in the last year.
>
> Why is it not taking over the desktop?
>
> Seems to me, we Windows users invest a lot of money in software and a
> free system would be a plus for us?
>
> So what's the deal?
>
> The deal is Linux sucks at 99 percent of what the average person wants
> or needs a computer to do.
>
> You have half assed Windows clones that neither perfom as well nor
> have the features of the equivilant Windows programs. In some cases
> you don't have any equivilant at all (a decent browser).
>
> You fear me, because I have the facts, have used Linux and have come
> to the same conclusion that legions of others have come to. Linux is
> nice, but Windows is better. I just choose to expose this Linux scam
> for what it is. A scam.
>
> So, unlike Terry Porter who got pissed off back in 1997 at Windows, I
> will continue to try current versions of Linux and Windows and maybe,
> just maybe, someday I will switch to Linux.
>
> claire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:07:50 -0000
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:25:05 GMT, Haoyu Meng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>U need to read a whole book to understand how to use Latex. I am in the business
>of writing books using computers. I don't want to have to learn programming to
>do that.
You have an exceedingly unprofessional attitude regarding your tools.
[deletia]
--
Be it our wealth, our jobs, or even our homes; nothing is safe while the
legislature is in session.
Sometime in 1993 NANCY SINATRA will lead a BLOODLESS COUP on GUAM!!
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget us.
-- Henrik Tikkanen
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ms employees begging for food
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:11:05 -0000
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:08:43 GMT, Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>Ketil Z Malde wrote:
>
>> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > Revenues down 20% from hundreds of billions vs revenues up 270%
>> > from nothing doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot.
>>
>> It could mean that the cash value of the software market is
>> shrinking. If free software becomes a (more and more) viable
>> alternative, it means that pure software companies will struggle to
>> keep their niches, and they'll eventually die off.
>
>And the niches will not be supported because the free software developers
>will have no reason to support those niches that they find "less than
>cool". The thing with free software is that it is not market driven and
This is assuming that the potential customers don't themselves
become their own software developers. Such things aren't
unprecedented.
>thus is not resposive to the business user who votes with dollars to get
>what he wants. If the source is GPL'd then no one will be able to get VC to
>start a software company to make profits because every other geek on the
>planet can just take that software and make the same thing and undercut the
>first until the they are both free. So look at it this way -- voting by
>buying is the American way.
You mean being forced to continually pay over and over again
for the same thing is the "American Way". Much of free software
is a reaction to that. While it may be "traditional" to pay, it
is also "traditional" to pay as little as you can get away with.
[deletia]
--
C for yourself.
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
It takes a smart husband to have the last word and not use it.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grega Bremec)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:25:39 GMT
...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] used the keyboard:
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:25:05 GMT, Haoyu Meng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>U need to read a whole book to understand how to use Latex. I am in the business
>>of writing books using computers. I don't want to have to learn programming to
>>do that.
>
> You have an exceedingly unprofessional attitude regarding your tools.
Just thought I'd mention it - you forgot to tell him he could use LyX
instead, if he insisted on being unprofessional. :-)
Cheers,
--
Grega Bremec
grega.bremec-at-gbsoft.org
http://www.gbsoft.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Distro 8.0 wish list...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:23:08 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It was the Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:43:19 GMT...
> ...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > GNOME 2
>
> That'll take a while. What about GNOME 1.4?
I guess. So long as it's using GTK+ 2.0 I'd be satisfied (I'm a wannabe
developer).
> > GNOMEOffice
> > OpenOffice
>
> These two will probably overlap a lot, enough to say they're the same.
Huh? I thought OpenOffice was the new name for the Open Sourced
StarOffice...
Okay, never mind. GNOMEOffice and StarOffice.
> > Mozilla 1
> > Netscape 6
>
> These two are the same (Netscape with proprietary additions).
Yeah, I'd still like to see both for comparisons. Plus, I wouldn't even
mind having a Linux IE port, so that you could compare HTML renderings
across different browsers (assuming a Lx IE was consistent with a
MS/Mac IE...). Would make it easier to design from home.
> > At least one good desktop publishing program (Quark preferably)
>
> Is there Quark for any Unix?
Not that I know of. Unix and Linux turned up nada on a search.
> GNOME 2.0 is definitely out of the question, they're still working on
> revamping the core. GNOME 1.4 will probably be in it, it's supposed to
> be released this year.
Ah well. We've been living this long without Linux 3.0, I guess I can
survive...
-ws
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: 19 Oct 2000 20:35:27 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Haoyu Meng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: U need to read a whole book to understand how to use Latex. I am in
: the business of writing books using computers. I don't want to have
: to learn programming to do that.
A whole book...oh the horror. But really, just about everything
you'll need is explained in:
http://ctan.tug.org/tex-archive/info/lshort/english/lshort.pdf
It really isn't all that hard and certainly doesn't require
any programming expertise (unless you want to).
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Linux Experience
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:44:57 -0400
Haoyu Meng wrote:
> Linux is not ready for the desktop.
Linux is ready for my desktop.
> Functionality offered by KDE/GNOME is
> relatively imature and unstable, compared to Windows, especially Windows2000.
I haven't had KDE crash on me. Also, KDE has eight desktops out of the box. What
kind
of instability do you have?
>
> GNOME and KDE crash way too often, is slow unless used under root account, and
> has almost no cross-application integration (ActiveX).
What are you doing?
>
>
> I use many Linux boxes to do data intensive batch jobs. Another friend of mine
> use a personal farm of about 10 identical Linux boxes to do data-mining and
> spamming.
> There is definitely use for Linux, just not on the desktop -- yet.
>
Wrong, as I use it on my desktop.
>
> Haoyu Meng
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Kelley)
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:46:56 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:34:54 GMT, Haoyu Meng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Windows 2000 is rock solid. I have used it for almost half a year. Only
>had to reboot twice, both times due to conflict from newly installed
>hardware devices.
>
>Windows 2000 is stable, powerful, and easy to use. So does anyone see it
>as seriously challenging the relevance of pushing Linux to the desktop?
>
>Personally, I had been a Linux fan since Kernel version 1 with Slackware
>floppies downloaded over 28.8k modem. While in college I used Linux as
>my main workstation OS, with Win95/98 relegated to secondary role. But
>Win2k changed all of it. Right now, all the workstation frontends I use
>at home at work is win2k boxes with the headless Linux servers tucked
>away on a network link to do only number crunching and code comping.
>
>Any similar stories?
This is an obvious troll. Shit, what are you guys using MS approved
trolling forms now?
And to answer your question, I prefer the multi user-ness and network
transparency of X11/unix that windows will never, and can never, have.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.iww.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Kelley)
Subject: Re: Linus position in "Power List"
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:49:25 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>fyi The Power List is drawn up anually and lists the 300 people who
>have the most power (influence?) over the lives of people living in
>the UK - prime minister of China came in at number 68, madonna at 96,
>head of Starbucks was well up there - never even see a starbucks!
Guess you weren't aware that the British parliment was accquired by
Starbucks last year?
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.iww.org
------------------------------
From: "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 challenges GNOME/KDE
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:45:34 +0200
Universal, consistent, printing for one ...
"Matthias Warkus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It was the Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:06:11 +0200...
> ...and James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Comparing Win2k to Gnome/KDE is really unfair. They are still playing
> > catchup to Win95/98. Hell, in some ways (ease of use, consistent
interface,
> > available apps) they have yet to pass Win31 ...
>
> Interface consistency with the rest of X applications is impossible to
> achieve, applications are coming; what puzzles me is your third point:
> How is Windows 3.1 more user-friendly than either GNOME or KDE?
>
> mawa
> --
> Brigitte-Leser!
> Brillenputzer!
> Briefmarkensammler!
> Brockhaus-Abonnent!
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
From: Darin Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:51:26 GMT
Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> These groups. Not USENET. The groups include comp.os.linux.advocacy
> comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
> comp.lang.java.advocacy
These weren't, Amiga groups were. Whether that qualifies as "these"
groups or not... When I hear someone say "people were talking about
such and such on these groups backs in 85", I just presume they're
talking about similar groups, or advocacy groups, or all of usenet,
etc. I certainly wouldn't think it meant the groups listed in the
distribution list (unless the person was a known pedant perhaps).
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Linux is great.
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:53:34 -0400
Idoia Sainz wrote:
>
> > A typical Linux distribution, out of the box, has 95% of anything anyone
> > (that's ANYONE!) would want to do with a computer.
>
> Again 0 facts in here.
>
Wrong.
>
> > I have a friend that is self employed as a word processor, she uses
> > Linux, as she puts it, her "time is worth money."
>
> Again her opinion is not relevant as an objetive fact, indeed I do
> use Word 2000 to write texts, even when I have Staroffice,
> abiword and LyX perfectly usable at my computer.
And how is this more objective than her use of Linux? And why would
you leave your data at the mercy of Microsoft?
> I find it more
> featured, faster and prettier. Again it is an opinion.
>
But your opinion sucks!
>
> Again you personal opinion, let's parse it. Cool and eye candy, well,
> I have nothing against that (what are trying GNOME, KDE and all
> the window managers around ?); what's more, I feel Windows interface
> is the best one around, faster and very featured (all in this world is
> improvable).
Multiple desktops out of the box?
> Unstability is a disturbing issue, but when talking about
> home or workstation machines NT Workstation, 2000 Professional
> are rock solid, and even Windows 98 is fine for that in some cases.
> In my opinion Windows NT/2000 Server is not mature as a server
> product.
>
> > If what you want to
> > accomplish can be done with Linux, you will find that it will be more
> > reliable and more economically viable than ANY Windows solution.
>
> I agree that if something can be done with Linux it can be done
> more reliable and in some cases with less money.
>
> All of your great Linux defense ends in a blind hate to Microsoft
Our hatred of Microsoft is not blind; we hate MS with full cognizance
of its attempts at vendorlock, proprietary formats, and intimidation.
>
> and Windows, and in the conclussion that Linux makes a good and
> economic server for a lot of things, given that you have some one
> that knows how to manage it. On the other side, at the desktop it
> can be used too (and being done by some people) given you like
> computers, you have the time to spend on it and you want to do
> some kind of things less productive than you would do in Windows.
Such as look at dancing paperclips?
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:56:39 GMT
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:56:42 -0000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
> More than anything else, this is a great reason to tell the
> unwashed masses why they should AVOID brand name PC's like
> the plague and have some awareness of what's going in their
> box.
But yet every time one of these "brand name" PC's start supporting
Linux, you rant and rave about mainstream support.
Sounds like a double standard to me. You can't have it both ways.
>
> 810's a pretty cheezy chipset to be sitting in a brand name PC.
>
> You might as well get an emachine at that point.
But yet you extoll the usefulness of Linux on cheap/older hardware.
Double standard again jedi.
So which one is it?
>>
>>> The Celeron boxes all use the 810 or 810e chipset, and the PIIIs use
>>> the 815 or 815e chipset, which isn't too much different.
>>
>>> Shall I now explain to you why water is wet?
>>
>>Not to be terribly argumentative, but it may be worth noting that dell
>>sells multiproc Xeon machines as well.
>
> Now, as far as 810's and 815's go...
>
> Just do a search for Linux+810 on google and see what pops up.
Why bother?
claire
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:45:46 -0400
"." wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 16 Oct 2000 16:35:11 -0500,
> > Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >>news:8sd7b3$1vd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >>> In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering student
> >>> who had
> >>> > > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old sysadmin
> >>> in
> >>> > boston.
> >>> >
> >>> > amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> In your wet dreams, Dristan.
> >>>
> >>
> >>wow - truth hurts? Dristan - that was almost funny...
> >>
>
> > Like we've never seen this before. A drop out attempting to diminish
> > the value of a good education because he couldn't make the grade
> > himself. No different from the fact he attempts to diminish Unix
> > because he can't handle actually learning it.
>
> > Why don't you provide some data to back up your claim, Alex. Show me
> > some stats to show the average MCSE with no college education at all
> > makes more than the average Purdue Engineering graduate. For that
> > matter, simply show the average MSCE makes more than the average EE.
>
> I said "sysadmin", moron, not "MCSE". Sysadmins routinely make between
> 65 and 95k, and often make over 100. And they need *never* have been
> to college.
The ones making 100k+ are college educated.
>
> And I didnt say "engineering graduate", you idiot, I said "3rd year
> computer engineering student".
>
> Now, I know that this is the case, because I have many computer
> engineering student friends.
>
> > The only reason MSCE's have any decent salary data at all is because
> > many of them actually do have college degrees.
>
> I see you dont work in the field.
>
> -----.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: who's WHINING dipshit!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:58:30 GMT
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:00:59 -0000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
> I never had any problems with my Voodoo3, or Voodoo2, or Intel 740,
> or S3Virge, or Matrox G400.
Is the Matrox G400 FINALLY fully supported under Linux, or is it still
single head only support?
claire
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: IDC Estimates Linux growth at 183% per year
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:58:27 -0400
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Nigel Feltham
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:23:11 +0100
> <8sl162$k2m5f$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>Linux - 50 million satisfied users worldwide
> >>and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
> >>
> >
> >
> >Time to recalibrate that sig then Rex - 183% per year is at least double
> >your 5% per month ( can't be bothered to work out exact percentage due to
> >forgetting formula for compounded percentages - e.g. each month you have to
> >add 5% + 5% of the previous montht percentage etc).
>
> 1.05^12 = 1.7958563259
>
> It's not very far off. (Isn't 'bc' wonderful? :-) )
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
But 183% growth means a factor of 2.83
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Has anyone had much success with plex86?
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:00:10 +0100
David Brown wrote in message <8snjk5$3s5$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Has anyone tried plex86? I know a number of people use VMWare to run other
>OS'es (most Windoze) under Linux, but plex86 does much the same thing, as
>far as I understand it, and it's free. Does anyone know how well it works
>in practice?
>
It is also going to be a while before it is finished - Current versions can
boot dos but not much more. If you have a fast machine you can try looking
for Bochs as windows can boot under this (very slowly) and it is also
available free ( part of it's code is being incorporated into the plex86
project).
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: sysadmin == secondary role (Was: Astroturfing
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:56:15 -0400
Perry Pip wrote:
>
> On 17 Oct 2000 08:12:41 GMT,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> On 16 Oct 2000 16:35:11 -0500,
> >> Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >>>news:8sd7b3$1vd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >>>> In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>>> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering
> student
> >>>> who had
> >>>> > > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old
> sysadmin
> >>>> in
> >>>> > boston.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>> In your wet dreams, Dristan.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>wow - truth hurts? Dristan - that was almost funny...
> >>>
> >
> >> Like we've never seen this before. A drop out attempting to diminish
> >> the value of a good education because he couldn't make the grade
> >> himself. No different from the fact he attempts to diminish Unix
> >> because he can't handle actually learning it.
> >
> >> Why don't you provide some data to back up your claim, Alex. Show me
> >> some stats to show the average MCSE with no college education at all
> >> makes more than the average Purdue Engineering graduate. For that
> >> matter, simply show the average MSCE makes more than the average EE.
> >
> >I said "sysadmin", moron, not "MCSE". Sysadmins routinely make between
> >65 and 95k, and often make over 100. And they need *never* have been
> >to college.
>
> Instead of blowing hot air why don't you provide some real data.
> According to the SANS 1999 survey which you can get from
> http://www.sans.org/sal99.htm
>
> Average sysadmin: $54,660.
> 54% w/ college degrees. 20% w/ some college.
> Those with degrees averaging $5000 more than those without.
>
> And from EETimes: http://www.eetimes.com/salarysurvey/1999/money.html
>
> Average EE: $75,500
>
> That's a 20K difference.
>
> Moreover, you sysadmin types need to get your head out of the clouds
> and realize your job is nothing but a secondary role. Whether it is
Wrong.
Good Systems administration is a "force multiplier" akin to upgrading
soldiers from spears and lances to submachineguns and assualt rifles.
That is, by improving their tools, the end-users are FAR more productive
than they would be otherwise.
In a way, by making that engineer 5x-20x as productive, the sysadmin is
essentially the difference between having 1 man produce 1 circa-1970
engineer's worth of productivity, and having one engineer today be more
productive than an entire department was in 1970.
I used to do direct 'on the floor' support (not remote/telephone support)
for GM, and saw how quickly productivity slowed down when there were
problems which require admins to solve.
> desktop PC's or supercomputers your job is merely to keep the machines
> running securely. It's the people who actually use the machines to
But that *IS* an essential task.
If that engineers' computer is not working properly, 80% - 95% of his
productivity is out the window.
> produce a product are playing the primary role in a business. When the
> machines don't run, the shit hits the fan and the sysadmins hear
> it. When the machines do run the cutomers forget who the sysadmins
> are. How is that any different from being an HVAC mechanic? The only
> way to really do well as a sysadmin is to be a consultant. Othewise,
> it's a thankless job.
>
> This thread was about MCSE's, btw. You switched it to sysadmin.
>
> >And I didnt say "engineering graduate", you idiot, I said "3rd year
> >computer engineering student".
>
> You also said 17 year old sysadmin, which makes your whole statement
> meaningless.
>
> >> The only reason MSCE's have any decent salary data at all is because
> >> many of them actually do have college degrees.
> >
> >I see you dont work in the field.
>
> Most MCSE's have degrees, and they tend to be higher paid than the
> ones who don't. From MPC magazines MCSE survey (1999):
> http://www.mcpmag.com/members/99jul/charts.asp?cid=37
>
> As far as whether I "work in the field", I wouldn't want to. I'm an
> aerospace engineer working in an avionics lab on a research
> prototype. We have an onsite contractor who does our sysadmin work for
> our offices and many of the machines in our labs. A few specialized
> machines we do oursevles. I appreciate the work the sysadmins do. I
> appreciate the mechanic who fixes my car as well. But both are generally
> thankless jobs.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
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