Linux-Advocacy Digest #788, Volume #29 Sat, 21 Oct 00 15:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux (T. Max Devlin)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (Loren
Petrich)
Re: who's WHINING dipshit! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Starting a Linux program in schools (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Clearing things ("Weevil")
Re: who's WHINING dipshit! (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Linux Sucks (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Linux Sucks (T. Max Devlin)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (Jim
Richardson)
Time is Money (WAS: A classic example of unfriendly Linux) (Bloody Viking)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Simon Cooke")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:11:46 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>Again, I repeat IT'S ONE SINGLE REFERENCE. I found NO other references
>offering 'proof'. Surely with as oft quoted a phrase as "DOS ain't done till
>Lotus won't run", SOMEBODY would have other proof?
Why? This seems to be a logical fallacy, at best. Because it is
oft-quoted means there is strong evidence? Isn't that a bit backwards,
like you're assuming the reason it is oft-quoted is because there is
strong evidence? In fact, the quote provided is entirely convincing
evidence. Silverberg was asked if he said it, and he confirmed that he
had. What more evidence do you expect to find?
In fact, the reason it is oft-quoted is not because there is a lot of
evidence, but because it is such a grievous and grave example of
anti-competitive intent.
>> But, Fred is, after all, only one source. Here's another. In the book "Hard
>> Drive", by James Wallace & Jim Erickson, in the chapter titled "Growing Pains",
>> the same quote is reported from another source. Also, details of problems
>> encountered by Lotus 1-2-3 are provided. That's two sources. Way more than the
>> "one SHRED of proof" you asked for. But I won't hold my breath waiting for you
>> to honor your word.
>
>Really? Well, I guess I'd better get a hold of that book and read it. Unless
>you'd like to provide the quote -- preferably with page numbers and
>references. That's the way you REPORT SOURCE MATERIAL YOU IDIOT.
LOL. This isn't a school report, Simon. We're expecting that you would
be rational enough to check yourself, if you need a page number. Idiot.
>NOTE: That quote has been quoted by well more than two sources. That doesn't
>make it true.
NOTE: Nothing you have provided in any way sheds any doubt on the fact
that it is true. Do you have some evidence that it is not true? The
fact you don't doesn't make it true, either, nor does it make it false,
but it does make you a troll.
[...]
>Oh dear. I'm being insulted by an anonymous COWARD. Oh, my heart bleeds.
Is it only the fact that he chooses to post anonymously that indicates
to you he is a coward? And what precisely does this have to do with
whether Microsoft was engineering DOS to break competitor's products?
>How about you explain why only one person on the planet seems to have
>'proof'.
>
>Heck, while you're at it, why not tell me who you are?
>
>If not, bye bye. I don't have to talk to people who don't have the courage
>to stand behind their insults.
You don't have to talk to anyone, Simon. But you should state your case
or shut your trap. Your trolling is... growing tiresome. :-)
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:13:13 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Colin R. Day in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> >
>> >Nope.
>> >Mac users are a nice group as a whole and are not interested in
>> >operating systems for the most part. They use applications, useful,
>> >easy to use applications.
>>
>> Since they have to buy alternate hardware to avoid the monopoly, they're
>> tolerable. Not like the infidels who dare to use a PC and not bow down
>> to the great Microsoft, owner of the PC platform. <G>
>>
>
>Sounds more like that Mac users are infidels, whereas Linux users are
>heretics.
Good point.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:11:37 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Define "yellow-dog Republicanism" in a way that goes beyond
> "evil-sounding ad hominem that Loren pulls out of his ass whenever
> he's losing an argument"
"I'd vote for any yellow dog who just happens to be a Republican".
Sort of like a yellow-dog Democrat.
--
Loren Petrich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: who's WHINING dipshit!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:29:48 GMT
I went crazy with a similar problem.
I have a USR V.Everything Courier internal (non Winmodem).
The default was setup as a link to /dev/modem which would not work.
I was getting the dreaded ppp timed out error.
/dev/cuax did not work either.
I had to change it to /dev/ttsyx (I believe that's correct) to get it
to work.
Works perfectly under Windows as well as under DOS using QuickLink or
Procomm.
claire
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:48:23 -0400, "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:ar6I5.205$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> JS/PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >
>> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > > 2:1 wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > JS/PL wrote:
>> > > > > It was enough of a pain in the ass getting it to see
>> > > > > the modem and work the video card, which Windows manages to do all
>> by
>> > it's
>> > > > > self.
>> > > >
>> > > > That's utter bullshit and you know it. Windows does not see anything
>> > > > more than a VGA card by itself. You give it drivers and tell it
>> > > > explicitly what card you have. So you had to do the same thing under
>> > > > linux? So fucking what? How does this now make linux worse?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Actually, all of the Linux's that I've installed (RedHat, Mandrake,
>and
>> > > SuSE) Found the hardware and drivers themselves, and put the drivers
>> > > in place in the FIRST install step.
>> >
>> > After two hours on two seperate occasions trying to get Mandrake 7.1 to
>> > communicate with my Zoom Telephonics, Inc. internal 56k data fax dual
>> modem
>> > (not a winmodem) I finally just went out and bought a different modem.
>> >
>> > Total aggravation= 5 hours including the 40 mile drive (as I live in
>> > Bumbfuck, Egypt).
>> >
>> > I place a price of $100/hr on aggravation.
>> >
>> > So just getting the modem to work in Linux costs $500.00
>> >
>> > Total time installing the same modem in Windows 2000 = 1 minute
>> >
>> > Total cost of aggravation = $1.66
>> >
>>
>> No one really believes you except other Wintrolls, and I suspect most of
>> them recognize this as bullshit, too.
>
>I don't care who believes it, it all happened. Linux doesn't see the modem.
>It sees the second modem that I had to go out and buy, but only after I had
>to hold it's hand all the way through a fricking manual install
>
>cat /proc/pci
>setserial.....
>manual edit of /ect/rc.d/rc.local
>etcetera ad nauseum.....
>
>And then repeat the whole long drawn out process for users. Real user
>freindly, "ready for the (m)asses" OS you got there.
>
>
>>
>> > > Meanwhile, in MS-LoseDows land...it's Install a driver...reboot,
>install
>> > > another driver...reboot....install another driver...reboot.....
>> > >
>> > > Fuck that noise.
>> >
>> > You don't have to reboot each time in Windows 2000, refreshing the
>device
>> > manager will do in most instances, but if not you can reboot once, when
>> your
>> > finished installing it all.
>> >
>> > And to top it off I believe X makes you log off and back on just to
>> change
>> > the screen resolution. Windows doesn't.
>> >
>>
>> I don't recall trying to change screen resolution on the fly in Linux as a
>> normal user, but as root user, I have *always* been able to change it with
>a
>> single keystroke, no logoff needed.
>>
>> Until recently, though, Windows actually made you reboot your whole system
>> just to change the screen resolution. I bet a whole lot of people reading
>> this are using a Windows system that does this. Are you?
>>
>> jwb
>>
>>
>
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:38:11 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Nik Simpson in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>> Not when the reason I said it was to point out the inaccuracy in your
>> statement that "USENET was one of the first application of ARPANET",
>
>Check out your attributions, I never made any such statement. You are
>obviously confusing me with somebody else.
You are correct; my apologies. I confused your response with Mike
Byrn's initial comments. Your statement refuted Mike's, though, in just
the way I described. Again, I apologies for any confusion. My mistake.
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.linux.redhat
Subject: Re: Starting a Linux program in schools
Date: 21 Oct 2000 18:35:59 GMT
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:49:17 GMT, John Newsom wrote:
>I am trying to get a linux/unix administration program started in one
>of our high schools. Our vocational education program director is
>unsure of the need. He has done some searching and found very few
>Linux jobs posted. One of his contacts indicates that Linux represents
>only 1% of the IT/IS market.
The point that he's missed completely ( which is unsurprising given that
he's not a techie ) is that Linux is part of a much larger picture.
In particular, Linux is one of the many UNIX-like operating systems on
the market. Someone who is proficient in Linux is also fairly proficient
in BSD and Solaris. You need to point out that the skills learned in
this program will be broadly applicable. Emphasise that it is a *UNIX*
administration program, not just a Linux program.
What I would do is ask your vocational program director to look at the
UNIX jobs posted.
>Am I chasing a chimera here, or are we just at the beginning of
>exponential growth in the Linux/Unix marketplace. We currently have a
I don't think we're going to see any overwhelming explosions overnight.
We've been seeing a steady increase in name recognition and in software
available over the last few years though.
>Windows NT/2000 certification program and a CISCO certification
>program. I am hoping to be able to offer our students some choices.
I hope you are able to do so too.
Good luck with your program.
Cheers,
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Clearing things
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:39:50 -0500
Idoia Sainz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:uP0I5.353$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Please tell me, is WinME multi-user? Really multi-user? Didn't think so.
>
> No, it isn't, and no home user does need it, with different profiles is
> enough.
LOL. Talk about deja vu! This same sort of argument is what Microsoft
groupies used back in the 80s to diss multitasking, GUIs, sounds beyond the
PC's ability to beep, etc. Nobody really needs any of that stuff, right?
Nobody needed any of it, that is, until Windows came out. At that point,
Microsoft groupies obediently did a complete about face and started
trumpeting the virtues of a multitasking, GUI based operating system
complete with add-on sound cards that could play music!
> > MS decided you have to pay extra for that. Same with even elementary
> > stability - linux you get it, WinMe you don't.
>
> I decided, not MS. And I decided to use a lot of OS's and to try not
> to fall into loving one blindly.
You've been assimilated.
jwb
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: who's WHINING dipshit!
Date: 21 Oct 2000 18:40:31 GMT
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 06:13:14 GMT, Mike Byrns wrote:
>
>
>2:1 wrote:
>
>> > And to top it off I believe X makes you log off and back on just to change
>> > the screen resolution. Windows doesn't.
>>
>> Well, you believe completely wrong.
>> crtl+alt+'+'
>> Switches to the next enables resolution.
>> ctrl+alt+'-'
>> switches to the previousle enabled resolution
>>
>> So to top it all, unless you're adding a driver that can't be compiled
>> as a kernel module, you have to reboot. And that'r rare.
>
>How about one that uses a different X server?
I don't understand your point. All X servers that require kernel support
that I've seen are available as modules. And there are only a very few
X servers that require kernel modules.
>Please show that switching to any of the the most optimized drivers for all
>the most current cards do not need a reboot in Mandrake 7.2b3. I'll test it
>for you.
Well I don't have Mandrake but I don't see how it should require a reboot.
Shut down the X server, unload any kernel modules it uses, install the
new X server, load any kernel modules it uses, start the new X server.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Sucks
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:44:04 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>every end-user should be a pc-professional just because you say so? or juts
>because being able to handle that Unix wannabie?
No, every end-user should be pc-competent, because they want to be able
to use a PC. Kind of like how you have to learn to drive if you want to
use a car (unless you can afford a chauffeur.)
>BS! Linux is not ready for ws/dt (if ever) and thats it, server? yeah
>maybe, if you got a hell of a lot of time on your hands and money is nothing
>for your company (now that would be a strange company wouldnt it?)
Funny, Dell, Compaq, and IBM all disagree on your assessment of whether
Linux is ready for workstations. And Microsoft seems to think that it
is a threat to their desktop monopoly, as well.
http://www.opensource.org/halloween/
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Sucks
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:47:27 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Gardiner Family in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>thats cool. I was assuming you may have been a Windows only user who has never
>touched
>UNIX at all, however, I was wrong. When comparing say, Linux with Solaris,
>scalability,
>Solaris wins, however, when it comes to hardware support, linux has the upper hand. I
>understand, from the average joe or jane bloggs stand point that a compiler is as
>useless as tits on a bull, however, I could see, in maybe 2 to 3 years time Linux may
>have the same or close to the credibility of ease of use of Windows, however, this
>will
>never happen until the Linux community realise that users do not give a toss about
>technical details, all they want is a OS that works (stable and reliable) and can go
>down to Dick Smiths Electronics and buy their favourite game.
This has nothing to do with the "Linux community". This will never
happen until Microsoft's predatory lock-in on the pre-load market is
entirely eradicated. This is a legal issue, not a technical development
issue. Once Dell, Compaq, IBM, and Gateway (and the other 6 of the "top
ten", whomever they may be at the moment) are not bound by restrictive
contracts which maintain an illegal monopoly, it will probably take
about four or five months for Linux to be as "easy to use" as Windows
was six years ago. Which is a damn sight easier than it is to use
today.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
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======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:47:49 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 05:16:42 GMT,
Loren Petrich, in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim Richardson
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I am a little confused as to what your response has to do wrt Mr "Earth in
>> the Balance, but zinc mining profits in my checkbook balance" Gore.
>
> Typical yellow-dog Republicanism. Compared to Gore's zinc mine,
>Bush's Texas air is far worse.
>
>--
Why is it you assume that anyone who is not pro-gore must be pro-bush?
Gore owns a zinv mine, in tennessee, that has twice been cited by the state
for groundwater pollution. The state is considering legal action, to force Gore
to clean up the tailings. What does that have to do with the governor of Texas?
--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bloody Viking)
Subject: Time is Money (WAS: A classic example of unfriendly Linux)
Date: 21 Oct 2000 18:59:35 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: Here is a post from the firewall group. I have erased the names to
: protect the innocent.
Things can be hard at times with Linux. I guess it's a test of faith at times.
However, the alternatives aren't all that friendly when you try anything apart
from being a simple user.
I remember first taking up Linux. I had massive difficulties at first, but
persisted. I'm glad I did, as the price of commercial apps is prohibitive.
Need a loan amortiser? Buy a spreadsheet and hope it has an example file to
fuck with. Or, fire up "vi" or "pico" and bang out some C code. It took 3
hours to code a crude amortiser but I made one for my use. (OK, so I suck at
programming) You could end up spending that much time fucking with a
spreadsheet to make an amortiser file.
A good spreadsheet can cost way more than 3 hours of working overtime at work
to assemble the money needed to buy it. If I worked overtime, the after-tax
wages would be $15/hour, so the 3 hours I spent banging out the crude code is
equivalent to $45. You can't get a spreadsheet for that price, and you have to
waste the time for its install AND mucking with the amortize.dat file.
Since coding in C is easy for doing math, the pre-existing gcc compiler is
just perfect for my math needs. And a good compiler for Windows will set you
back pretty good. The gcc compiler represents a LOT of overtime never worked
to have! The neat thing is that doing math with C as the language is that it's
far easier to do math in C than working with strings. To work with strings, I
use a mix of C, shell scripts, perl, etc. Again, I'm a lousy programmer, but
since it's for my use only, it doesn't matter.
For the most part, making a Linux-only LAN is a snap. I made a LAN once with 2
computers long before the notion of the home LAN ever cropped up. NFS is real
easy to do, once you find out how. FTP and Telnet come practically out of the
box. Email is interesting, and Linux is awesome for coding email bots to
upload to a shell account. One thing I never figured out was Linux and PPP for
hooking to the real net. Oh,well. Just use Minicom.
Using Linux as a server in a normal LAN is challenging, but techies do it
every day, slipping a Linux server under the nose of the boss. Same with
setting up firewalls, etc.
Once you get into LANs, the amount of overtime worked to assemble the money
for server software is incredible. Price NT Server lately? At $3,000 and what
I would make working overtime at work, an NT Server album is equal to 200
hours or 25 Saturdays wasted. Setting up Samba would take way less time!
Worse, that NT Server machine needs a bunch of costly software to make it
useful.
With the cost of commercial software as it is, it wouldn't surprise me if a
Linux album is worth its weight in _plutonium_. To buy the Windows equivalent
of a Linux album, you'd need a VISA Plutonium credit card. And you had better
be awful productive to pay down that debt.
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:00:47 GMT
"Tired O'Shills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It's funny to see you harping about my identity after all your prior crap
about
> the right to anonymity. Gee, you're both a liar AND a hypocrite. What a
> surprise. Not.
You've got a right to your anonymity. And I've got a right to call you a
coward for it.
So go blow yourself.
Simon
------------------------------
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