Linux-Advocacy Digest #839, Volume #29 Tue, 24 Oct 00 02:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (sfcybear)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (sfcybear)
Re: Microsoft Speaks German! ("JS/PL")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Astroturfing ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Ms employees begging for food ("JS/PL")
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum ("Erik
Funkenbusch")
Re: Astroturfing (Caldera OpenLinux User)
Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows. ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows. ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows. ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Microsoft Speaks German! (sfcybear)
Re: ReiserFS ("kosh")
Re: Astroturfing (Marty)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Christopher Browne)
Re: Obscurity != security (Was: Pros and Cons of MS Windows Dominated World? (Perry
Pip)
Re: Microsoft Speaks German! (Perry Pip)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 04:04:02 GMT
In article <39f4d388$0$1075$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8t2feb$qva$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> <snip>--
> > Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
> > Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
> > http://www.open4success.com
> > Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
> > and growing at over 9%/month! (recalibrated 10/23/00)
>
> Say - did you notice this from that site?
>
> http://counter.li.org/estimates.html
>
> This guy estimates 15 million linux users ... (and he doesn't presume
to be
> psychic and determine if they are satisified or if they downloaded it
and
> never finished installing it)
>
> Time to get recalibrated again...
It also does not account for the users that have burned thier own CD's
and installed Linux on MANY machines!
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 04:01:38 GMT
In article <4i6J5.12215$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Drestin Black wrote:
> >
> > > speaks volumes doesn't it...
> > >
> > > Sounds like just the kind of post Ebert would use to support his
lies.
> > >
> > > "neJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:46:42 GMT, Charlie Ebert
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
>http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-10-21-017-06-NW-CY-MS
> > > >
> > > > The above story has been *unposted*??? What's the deal??
> >
> > What!
> >
> > http://counter.li.org/
>
> How scientific is this? We know that Penguinistas are known for their
> grossly skewing of web statistics with scripting repeated entries
> of whatever they want to foil.
Just once I would like to see you prove one of you accusations, chad.
Why not start with this one? Where is your proof
>
> > http://www.koehntopp.de/kris/msad.jpg
>
> JOOC, what magazine did this come from?
>
> -Chad
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Speaks German!
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:19:48 -0400
Reply-To: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >I found it interesting that they actually spent money
> > >on this one. Who was their Ad man?
> >
> > It was a stupid move. It only serves to show that Linux is
> > legit and M$ is worried about it.
> >
>
> Well, let's put it this way!
> It was a totally childish move by Microsoft to
> run a negative campaign ad in Europe.
Yea right. I have have grown to accept that every single article about Linux
will likely contain at least one slam against Microsoft. The whole Linux
campaign is built upon negativity towards Microsoft.
To prove my point I'll simply type a URL - Ohh... how bout.... linux.org
Page one at http://www.linux.org , the second text link states "Whats MS
worried about?"
But as I jump down to the "People of Linux" section and click the link to an
interview with Shawn Gorgon, I notice, there it is AS PREDICTED, a slam
against MS towards the bottom of the page. What do you know... :-(
Who's being childish??
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:47:55 -0500
"mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Yes, DesqView is an OS in the same way that DOS is an OS. It provides
OS
> > services. Whether it forwards those services on to someone else is
> > irrelevant. As an example, mkLinux runs under Mach. I know of no
> > requirement in any textbook example of an OS that the services provided
must
> > be done so by the OS itself, only that it provides those services.
> >
> > All interrupts and DMA requests go through the host OS first and are
only
> > then handled by a client client OS if necessary. Does Linux suddenly
not
> > become an OS simply because it's running in VMWare under Windows 2000?
No.
>
> Actually this is correct, when running under VMWare Linux is not
> operating as an operating system. When NT is running under VMWare on
> Linux, NT is not functioning as the OS. They are operating systems,
> just not functioning as THE operating system.
It's not the *NATIVE* operating system, that doesn't mean it's not an
operating system.
But you're still making my point. If Linux under VMWare is not an operating
system (or not THE operating system), then DOS (which runs under Win95's
control) is not THE operating system either. Windows is in complete control
over when the V86 VDM runs and when it doesn't.
> The difference is that DOS/Windows NEVER acts as, and can not act as, an
> OS. DOS/Windows extends DOS to become Windows.
So now, neither DOS or Windows is an OS. What is?
> > Thank you. This statement says precisely what I'm getting at. DOS
cannot
> > run in a protected mode environment, thus it must be "hosted" by a
protected
> > mode OS when running in protected mode.
> >
> > Simply put, Windows runs "on top of" DOS when it's running in real or
> > standard mode (real-mode was dropped in Windows 3.1, and standard mode
was
> > dropped in Win95). Windows does not run "on top of" DOS when running in
> > 386-enhanced mode.
>
> The operating model that is "Windows Enhanced Mode" first showed up in
> Windows 2.1/386. I still have a copy of it. It creates a virtual
> extended DOS and runs in it. BTW DOS/Windows is still based on DPMI,
> drum roll please.... DOS Protected Mode Interface.
Yes, that's the Protected Mode interface for DOS programs. DPMI is the 16
bit software interrupt interface that allows 16 bit DOS applications to
access protected mode functions and memory. This is no different from the
Linux binary API of FreeBSD, which provides a Linux workalike API for Linux
binaries.
That doesn't mean that FreeBSD is really Linux, since Linux apps can now
access FreeBSD code.
> > That code may also be handled completely within 32 bit memory. In fact,
> > Windows 95 does just this for nearly all DOS mode calls.
>
> It may, but only as an extension.
Not even. When running in protected mode, 32 bit code is the native
environment. The extension is when it drops down to DOS, which must have
code which forces this to occur.
> > And you admit yourself that these are OS level sorts of things. If it
walks
> > like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. It's a duck.
>
> "The looks like a duck" argument is too simplistic for a real
> understanding of the issues.
No, it's really at the heart of the issue.
> The term OS is a fuzzy one. When does something cease to be an
> application and become an OS? Emacs could be considered an OS in its own
> right. I think the general consensus on this is when an environment
> stands alone and performs the tasks of an OS, it is an OS. Windows does
> not stand alone. It requires DOS.
That's not the general consensus. Want a general consensus?
http://webopedia.internet.com/TERM/o/operating_system.html
http://www.fed-soc.org/cs020102.htm
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-025/_3689.htm
Windows meets all of those definitions.
>
> --
> http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:56:00 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:39f384d1$1$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:39f2e6f0$1$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >What's wrong with your reading comprehension, Joseph, that you can't
> >notice
> >> >the words "Besides that" in my statements. That means, "Even if it
were
> >> >true".
> >>
> >> You're proceeding on the hope that everyone here is too stupid to know
> >that
> >> newspapers would not run this story without verifying it. This makes
you
> >> either an M$ paid troll or a complete jackass troll.
>
> >The story doesn't say that MS paid them. That's the point. Did you even
> >read it? The conclusion that MS paid for the letters was made by someone
> >else
>
> Answer the question: How much are you paid to be here?
Well, you caught me. I'm paid $10 billion dollars a day to be here. Are
you happy now? Go away idiot.
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,comp.os.netware.misc
Subject: Re: Ms employees begging for food
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:35:38 -0400
Reply-To: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Well said, way too many people are looking the other way when it comes to
> Microsofts anti-customer anti-competition antic. I actually had a
> conversation with someone today who said "well we don't even know if
Novell
> will be around" WE DON"T KNOW IF MICROSOFT WILL BE AROUND in its current
> state. Novell didn't lose a huge case to the US Gov.
We know Microsoft will be around. It is a certainty. Worst case scenario is
that they get split which has about a 1 in 1000 chance of happening in
itself. But even if it does happen by some miracle, they'll still be here
for a LONG LONG time.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:00:06 -0500
"Relax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:39f44e69$0$86475$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > AFAIK, "USER" stuff is also inside the kernel because it must
> > dynamically link to the GDI stuff.
>
> Following this logic, app are also in the kernel because they must
> dynamically link to the GDI and USER stuff. Sounds wrong, uh? Actually,
> Gdi32.dll is in user space and exports all GDI functions. See [1]
No, USER and GDI live in kernel address space in order to prevent excessive
context switches between user and kernel mode (since GDI has to talk to the
hardware, it must do so, at least in some portion, from ring 0, causing a
context switch between user and kernel modes).
I'm not entirely certain how Linux is able to let only specific users access
hardware directly (root) while others can not.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:44:23 -0700
From: Caldera OpenLinux User <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Drestin Black wrote:
> "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8_dI5.975$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > Mike Stephen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Amazing isn't it? And the windows weenies have the balls to even
> > > argue the point?
> > >
> >
> > What's amazing is that with hundreds of millions of users of their
> products,
> > Microsoft actually pays people to advocate it. The mind boggles at what
> > this implies.
> >
> > jwb
> >
>
> What's even MORE amazing is that you know there are hundreds of millions of
> users of MS products who are obviously not paid to use those products,
> continue to use those products, continue to upgrade and use those products
> and you actually are stupid enough to imagine that MS would need to pay
> anyone in some lightly trafficed advocacy newsgroup? The mind boggles at
> what this implies of the rest of your capacity for stupidity might be...
It's all so easily explained once you admit MS has a MONOPOLY.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows.
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:08:15 -0500
"Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8t02uh$5b7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : Where is your evidence that this study was paid for by Microsoft?
>
> : Or is your thinking that anything pro-MS must have been paid for by
them?
>
> Given Microsoft's proven track record of unlawful and unethical
> behavior, the shoddiness of most of its products, its well-known past
> attempts to purchase "impartial" reviews, and the universal contempt in
> which it and its products are held by all knowledgeable people, I
> don't think that's an unreasonable position to take. Indeed, I don't
> see how any honest person could take any other.
You'd make a terrible juror.
"Given the black populations proven track record of unlawful and unethical
behavior, well known attempts to purchase "impartial" hearings, and the
universal contempt in which they are held by anyone that knows anything, I
don't think it's unreasonable to say that this black person is guilty."
An honest person would only make judgements based on facts.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows.
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:10:08 -0500
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Well why?
>
> Microsoft OS's almost double in price with every version they
> put out. W3k is $350 a throw in most places.
What are you talking about? Windows 2000 is the next version of Windows NT
4. If you had any sense, you'd notice that Windows 2000's price is
identical to that of Windows NT 4.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: $1,000 per copy for Windows.
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:13:58 -0500
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> > Where is your evidence that this study was paid for by Microsoft?
> >
> > Or is your thinking that anything pro-MS must have been paid for by
them?
>
> If you notice I said it's a paid study.
> It says so up front.
It does? Where?
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Speaks German!
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 04:48:07 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Idoia Sainz wrote:
> > >
> > >> GNU/Linux is a big opponent ... as a server.
> > >
> > > HA! Thank you.
> > >
> > > This is the thing I find STILL everybody is just clueless about!
> > >
> > > Catagorization! Linux can't be treated that way.
> > >
> > > The GNU/GPL is going to shape up as one of the
> > > most powerful documents to affect mankind.
> > >
> > > It marks the end of a period and the beginning of
> > > another.
> > >
> > > And yes it has been responsible for some Microsoft
> > > Server damage but also,,, it's eating away at the
> > > desktop's also. Especially in Europe, South America
> > > and Asia.
> > >
> > > America will follow the world into this revolution.
> > > We will be last.
> >
> > Quite possibly. However, SUN have basically given up on s/w.
> > They tried to split their h/w and s/w (sunsoft) but their
> > money comes from h/w. They now all but give Solaris away. And
> > why buy their compiler products when gcc is free?
>
> gcc does not make very fast programs on RISC processors. Suns compiler
> is worth buying if you want speed.
> Likewise, (compaq's) ccc makes faster programs than gcc.
>
> -Ed
Interesting, do you have any documentation supporting this???
>
> --
> Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward
Rosten
> binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
> first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
> commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "kosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ReiserFS
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:02:10 +0600
In article <eo3J5.171$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Marc Bonanova"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why the Hell ...
>
> ... a) does the kernel include Reiser nowadays ?
>
> ... b) doesn't each distro include the possibility of installing
> or upgrading over a Reiser filesystem ?
>
Just use Mandrake or Suse both support Reiserfs in the install and will
upgrade over it just fine. My person experience is with mandrake which I
have had a lot.
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 05:08:20 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> Well, you caught me. I'm paid $10 billion dollars a day to be here. Are
> you happy now? Go away idiot.
Be careful... I think he's inclined to believe you.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 05:18:06 GMT
In our last episode (Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:39:19 GMT),
the artist formerly known as Thomas Forlenza said:
>Actually, I know many Attorneys (not that anyone cares) who use Word
>Perfect. It is largely used in the legal circuit. So, now that Claire's
>world theory is false, we can not trust much of anything else she say's.
WordPerfect _owned_ the world for a long time; unlike Word, it has always
had pretty decent interoperability between versions. The big problems
were twofold:
- There were people irritated at the near-monopoly control of WordPerfect;
those _not_ tied to legal document templates were happy to leap to Word,
and haven't quite figured out yet that when they jumped out of a frying
pan, they jumped into something else...
- Microsoft worked _hard_ to ensure the success of Word 2.0, and the
abject failure of WordPerfect 5.2. The worst-kept secret of the
mid-80s was that "it won't be a successful Windows 3.1 release until
it makes WordPerfect crash..."
>You can however get Word Perfect for Linux - it works fairly well (just save
>often). I use StarOffice and produce some good documents with it. I am not
>sure about Applixware, but it got decent reviews in Maximum Linux.
ApplixWare is more mature than any of them; perhaps not as "pretty/
Windows-like-in-interface," but it has the added merit of using a
data format that you can make sense out of using a text editor...
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/wp.html>
"... the most important thing in the programming language is the name. A
language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a
very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language.
-- D. E. Knuth, 1967
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.security.misc
Subject: Re: Obscurity != security (Was: Pros and Cons of MS Windows Dominated World?
Date: 24 Oct 2000 06:05:04 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 23 Oct 2000 18:52:09 -0500,
Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
><snip>
>
>> No, you're wrong. CERT is not a statistic. They merely provide
>> information. It's up to admins to use that information. With
>> Linux/Unix, more information is availabe because it's open, which
>> ultimately results in more secure software.
>>
>> Here is a statistic:
>>
>> http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/os-graphs.html
>>
>> NT gets cracked more than anything. And with most of those NT machines
>> NOBODY KNOWS HOW THEY WERE CRACKED!!!. THAT'S REALLY SCARY!!!!
>
>Actually, everyone knows how they were cracked. You meant that YOU don't
>know how. That's not suprising.
Tell us how then:-) Identify all the vulnerabilties that were used and
point me the the patches.
>p.s., as of today, there have been 7 defacements of W2K sites in October,
Duh....because nobody's deploying W2k.
>but 107 for Linux -
and 139 for NT!!
>go open sores(tm)!
>
Only 1 for Debian Linux, 2 for Suse Linux (Most Linux were Redhat). 16
for FreeBSD and none for Open BSD. I'll leave it up to you figure the
overall numbers for Apache vs. IIS and compare that to Netcraft. Oh
fuck ... you flunked math.
Perry
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Speaks German!
Date: 24 Oct 2000 06:06:48 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:19:48 -0400,
JS/PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Yea right. I have have grown to accept that every single article about Linux
>will likely contain at least one slam against Microsoft. The whole Linux
>campaign is built upon negativity towards Microsoft.
What "Linux campaign". Who's running this campaign?
>To prove my point I'll simply type a URL - Ohh... how bout.... linux.org
>
>Page one at http://www.linux.org , the second text link states "Whats MS
>worried about?"
That's a link to a ZDnet article with that title. You should write
ZDnet if you think it's a slam. The article doesn't seem like a slam
to me. They merely seem to be saying that MS has some competition in
the server market an Linux is a primary competitor in that market.
>But as I jump down to the "People of Linux" section and click the link to an
>interview with Shawn Gorgon, I notice, there it is AS PREDICTED, a slam
>against MS towards the bottom of the page. What do you know... :-(
1) You had to go pretty deep to find that.
2) How is it a slam? All he seems to be saying is that MS can't
embrace and extending Linux because of it's open nature.
>Who's being childish??
You are if that's all you can come up with.
------------------------------
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